Hezbollah

[Tigranakert]

Re: Hezbollah

By the way, the organizations name is Hayasa, a few months ago they ''helped'' my fathers uncle and his family by bringing them to Vienna and from there on to America.

[Krazy]

Re: Hezbollah

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country; I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians.
Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.

btw I had the impression that Armenians in western countries have more chance to lose their Armenian identity than us in Lebanon. It seems without seeing each other, it makes us think the same way regarding the other Armenians.

note: the subject is "Hezbollah". Why are all of you (not only the quote I made) discussing about something not related to Hezbollah?

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

I think he is referring to the modern mtv, xxxx culture. Women aren't women, men are like carpets and have no honor, people are all around stupid and super materialistic. This has and will continue to destory the so called 'free socities' of europe and north america. There is such a thing as too much freedom.

You know what Armenen, compared to the East the West has always been so-called decadent; at least since Roman times. [It's just that American pop culture pushed the envelope quite a bit] But this is the price a society pays for individual freedoms. However, it is through individual freedoms that progress and development occurs. Therefore, it's a two sided coin. The problem I see in the West today is the 'corporate/government' sponsored American pop culture that is being push on us all by globalists. Nonetheless, I rather deal with social problems such as drug and sex abuse than live like some religious fanatic's slave. Individual freedoms are essential to the forward evolution of mankind. However, knowing the nature of mankind, I agree that it has to be somewhat regulated.

True, at the same time though it was Armenia that allowed Europe to prosper while Armenia manned the gates and prevented the turks from spreading to Europe earlier than they did. Not to mention the numerious achievements of ancient Armenia, from whence Greece and later Rome got much of their know how, and they are often thought of as the founders of so called 'western civilization'.

Yeah well, armed with that information and $2 will get you a ride on the New York City subway... The question is never - what have you done for me in the past. It's - what have you done for me lately.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

I have a lot of respect for you Armenian, I have learned a lot from you but I think you are wrong in some points.

Thank you, enker. We are simply debating a topic, I don't expect you to agree with me on all points.

In Iran women were not treated as bad under the Sjah's regime, they were enjoying a lot of freedom and persian men did respect their women, they were not treating their women ''horrendously'', not as much as they do now.

I agree. I never said otherwise. The problem with Iran is 20th century geopolitics. Had it not been for the West, Iran today would most probably have been the most advanced, most prosperous nation in the region.

What is better? The one which is the best for us Armenians! In an islamic society our Armenian women, unlike in the West, married only Armenians. They are not being influenced as much by the hiphop-sex-rap-xxxx culture the West produces.

In that sense, I agree. In Islamic societies Armenians are forced to keep amongst themselves. However, this brings up the question of Diaspora. What the fucking point of maintaining an Armenian identity in the Diaspora?

Why must it be a total gross exaggeration, can you explain me why the biggest organization in Iran bringing Armenians to America is funded by the xxxs? They arrange everything, be it money, greencards and tickets. Why should they do that? Because they feel sorry for the Armenians?

Many things in this world is run by them. And not everything is a Jewish conspiracy to depopulate Armenia. Besides which, Armenia is just a hop, skip and a jump away for most Persian-Armenians. If an Armenian living in Iran wants to leave its probably easier for him/her to move to Armenia than to America. Their primary intention is to undermine the Iranian state.

I do not know the situation in Lebanon, but I know the societies in Lebanon brought upon a lot of fedayees and nationalistic Armenians, whereas the Armenians in France (with also a history of 100 years) assimilated much faster than the Armenians in Lebanon. Because Armenians adapt faster to the sex-hiphop-fake-christian culture than the ''Arab'' culture in Lebanon.

The secret of understanding Lebanon's unique Armenian population is the genocide era ghetto there called Burj hamood. Most of Lebanon's Armenians originated in this ghetto, including myself. And like Palestinians growing up in their refugee camps since 1948 were taught to hate Israelis, Lebanese Armenians were programmed by the Bolshevik Hnchak and National Socialist Dashnak organizations in Lebanon to hate Turks. Living under very low living standards many of the uneducated ghetto dwellers made excellent candidates for paramilitary operations; and some of these individuals ended up in Armenia in the early stages of the Artsakh war. However, the stature of Armenians living in Lebanon is fast diminishing. Armenians there now number less than 100,000 and most of them are very cosmopolitan in nature and character. Nevertheless, don't fool yourself into thinking that Lebanese Armenians maintain a high understanding of pan-nationalism. Lebanese Armenians are simply proud about who 'they' are. It's a tribal pride. They are proud Armenians, they are not nationalists. There is a huge difference between proud Armenian and a nationalist Armenian. Moreover, their deep love for Lebanon can't be compared to a love for any other nation including Armenia. Although they will deny it a majority of them appreciate Turkish culture more than the "Russified" or "Communist" culture of Armenia.

And if you want to hear some of the nastiest things said about the Armenian Republic and its citizens, speak to a typical Armenian from Lebanon, or Syria, or Turkey.

Also I am talking about the Iranian-Armenian perspective. There is something you Lebanese Armenains did wrong, or maybe the little bit of freedom you got from the Arabs did make Lebanese Armenians Arabs. Armenians in Iran maintained their Armenian heritage and culture for over 300 hundred year, because of their different religion. They all speak Armenian, attend Armenian churches and have a much stronger relation with Armenia. This has recently changed a little bit because of the very few Armenians living in Iran.

Iranian Armenians have had the privilege of living in an Islamic society that has respected them. That's it. The Islamic society kept Armenians to themselves and the respect made them comfortable.

But again, what's the point of being 'proud' about how long you have maintained your identity in the diaspora?

[Armanen]

Re: Hezbollah

You know what Armanen, compared to the East the West has always been so-called decadent

I wasn't trying to compare the two historically, only recently and even then it's quite hard. Some periods have seen more immorality than others, for example the pre-Victorian era in Europe, or the pre-Ming dynasty in medeval China. It's just in human nature to take the easy route, which is often the immoral one. You hit the nail right on the head with this one, modern pop (sl*t) culture is mass produced and spread through all channels worldwide in order to make as many people as possible brain-dead, mass consumers with nothing on their mind other than the new iPod or new flavor of miller lite that they just have to get. Whether one is ok or even comfortable with this is another issue, but for millions around the world the 'west' has come to symbolize mindless creatures with three main drives: eating, sh*ting and fu*king.

However, it is through individual freedoms that progress and development occurs.

I agree, but you know as well as anyone else that individual freedom can occur just as well and even be directed toward more utility in other types of government too. Too often people place individual freedom and liberal democracy side by side as of the two are mutually inclusive.

The question is never - what have you done for me in the past. It's - what have you done for me lately.

Indeed. And that applies just as well with what the 'west' has done for Armenia.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.

If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians. Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.

"Remain Armenians" to what end, Krazy? Living in the diaspora is one thing, but proudly boasting a 'diaspora forever' attitude is counterproductive. What matters in any discussion about Armenians is the well being of the Armenian Republic. Regardless of what you want to believe, the diaspora is a dead end. While the Diaspora exists it should exists for the benefit of the Armenian Republic. Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?

For me, a single repatriated Armenian in Armenia, or an Armenian that keeps an intimate connection with his/her homeland, is worth more than the entire Armenian diaspora.

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Hezbollah

The current sad state of Islamic societies have to do with the destruction brought upon by Mongols, Turks and Crusaders. Islamic society never fully recovered from the destruction brought upon by the aforementioned. Moreover, the situation was made worst when the Allies hastily redrew the national boundaries of the Middle East at the end of the First World War for the purpose of exploitation and manipulation. The sick, violent and perverted form of Islam we are seeing today is a modern phenomenon brought upon by a century of western policies in the Middle East as well as the CIA's funding of fanatics in Pakistan during the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. And the oppressive Islamic regimes of the Arabian peninsula, who are the West's closest partners in the region, are that way simply because the West set it up that way at the turn of the 20th century because an oppressive/dictatorial regime was the best bet to secure a constant flow of oil from Arabia to the West.

The 'only' legitimate and honorable organization (political and social) in Lebanon is the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah enjoys very warm relations with the Armenian community of Lebanon. However, it's no secret that these people, those against the Zionist state and the West, are being severely pushed to the their limits. They are being turned into wild animals. Just look at what has happened to the historically peaceful and even docile Arab population of Palestine. It's been a century of constant attacks - military, economic and cultural - against them. So, it would not surprise me if one day these people, turned into wild animals, take their revenge on 'all' Christians in the region. And that would be exactly what the West is actually looking for.

Sadly, the persistent and overwhelming anti-Islam propaganda you are constantly exposed to has effected you subconsciously.

I think you have a misconception about the misconception. If you read our legal texts, you wouldn't make such a statement based solely on political history. Read our books before you understand our behavior through your comfortable "well-researched," "educated," and "academic" analysis of the current Islamic phenomena.

You probably have no clue how systematic and scurpulous legal texts are. For you to narrow "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam"down to a product of Western fabrication is completely unprecise. Do you not think it's possibe that this "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam" is a product of our own volution based on a valid and legitimate understanding of our legal texts. I'm not saying it is, but what I want to emphasize is that it seems you've completed dismissed or ommitted autonomy that Muslims may have had in producing this "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam" yet perhaps valid interpretation of legal scripture.

Just because outsiders may be able to influence the behaviors of certain pawn populations in the direction they want, that does not mean there aren't intelligent enough people who can independently conclude that the direction of the spinned popuation is not in complete disagreement with the direction it is sanctioned to be in by its own jurisdiction.

One quick example is Wahhabism. Indeed it was perverted strain that emerged in the late 18th century and then played by the British to dismantle the Ottoman Empire. But now, in the 21st Century, it backfired on them (Bin Laden). The point is, Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product though his movement may have been financed by them at one point. Read our own books. Go to the source of our thinking.

[Armanen]

Re: Hezbollah

Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product

You're right, he is a western agent.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

The point is, Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product though his movement may have been financed by them at one point. Read our own books. Go to the source of our thinking.

Why so touchy, ElTurco? My comments were constructed from a general premise that Islamic populations have an inherent weakness towards manipulation and exploitation due to their insular and backward lifestyles similar to other third world peoples. My comments were simply meant to drive a point across about the political manipulations of the West in Islamic nations without getting into a detailed conversation about Islamic law and the behavioral psychology in individual Muslims. Nor do I care to learn about your books. So, let me rephrase it: Muslims are predisposed to violence and primitive behavior due to certain cultural and religious elements found in their societies. Western powers seeing this have been manipulating it for generations. It's that simple. Are you happy now?

[Federate]

Re: Hezbollah

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.

Of course you have to blame the civil war, people left Lebanon in masses during those long 15 years. As the population decreases, so does the effectiveness of a community. In addition, the unwritten rule of a Diasporan community is this: as time passes by (90+ years now for our Lebanon community), the probability that the community will assimilate increases. However, there are still many Lebanese-Armenians there and quite frankly, I'd prefer their patriotism over some westernized-Armenian who does not know sh!t about his or her heritage. I'm sure you do as well.

If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

It's not always fun being called an "akhpar", nor was 46-48. Levon's tyranny did not help at all either, especially with his purging of the Dashnaktsutyun. Your expectations are set too high, Armenian, especially knowing that the Diaspora is nothing but a temporary state of existence, a long countdown to assimilation. Lebanese-Armenians, like all Diasporans, have a legitimate reason of not speaking perfect Armenian. However, the same cannot be true for the motherland where everything is in Armenian, everyone is Armenian and it has been independent of Soviet rule for almost 20 years now. Lebanese-Armenians, despite all the slang (slang also present in Armenia), probably have the best education/knowledge of Armenian among the Diaspora.

Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?

Lebanon is regularly the top investor in Armenia, even more than Russia (probably up until this year, when the Russian government injected a bunch). For example, see this link from last year http://www.huliq.com/23623/armenia-p...stments-in-q-1 . And something tells me it's not the Lebanese government that is interested in investing in Armenia. Lebanon was from where the majority of "Nerkaght"-ers came from, ASALA, JCAG, ARA were all founded and were HQ-ed in Lebanon, Monte Melkonian learned Armenian in Lebanon etc. You know all this so I am probably preaching to the choir They're not all that bad, they should serve as a model for all the Diaspora communities.