German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

[Alexandros]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

All that silliness is just a reaction to the Greek silliness. They can call their "country" by whatever name they want. Nations have gone to war over many things, but Greece wants to make a first by going to war just over what a another country calls itself. Some neighbours deserve each other!

Since when did Greece threaten with war against FYROM?And by the way, FYROM has already changed their constitutional name to "Republic of Macedonia".I didn`t see Greece threaten FYROM with war or invade FYROM.

And if FYROM wants Greece to recognize FYROM with the name "Republic of Macedonia" then FYROM will have to wait many years before they could join EU or NATO - if they will ever join.

If it only was about letting FYROM calling themselves whatever they want then this issue would had been solved.But it isn`t.This is an issue that concerns Greece`s history and heritage.

Having said that, Greece could also be blamed for not accepting the name "Slavic-Macedonia" which FYROM was ready to accept in the beginning of the 90s.But that`s history now, Greece is a member of the EU and NATO.And FYROM needs to realize that they need to find a compromise with Greece if FYROM wants to be able to join EU and NATO since Greece has the right to use its veto.

[Army]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

Well, NONE of the neighbors of Greece like Greece. Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey; all have problems with Athens. Greeks should learn to stop creating crisis from silly reasons.

[Alexandros]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

Well, NONE of the neighbors of Greece like Greece. Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey; all have problems with Athens. Greeks should learn to stop creating crisis from silly reasons.

Greece has pretty good relations with Bulgaria and Albania - especially with Bulgaria.

And when it comes to FYROM, Greece is the largest foreign investor in FYROM.Had it not been for the name issue we would have had good relations with FYROM too.

As for Turkey, relations have improved but Turkey`s behaviour in the Aegean sea(daily violations of Greek airspace), the occupation of Cyprus, the closure of the Theological school of Halki, pogrom against the Greeks in Istanbul(Turkish state seized properties owned by the Greeks),...etc are issues that needs to be solved in order to further improve relations between the countries but also for Turkey`s best if they want to become a member of the EU.

[Army]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

Do you think the problem about the ban on usage of the term "Turk" on West Thrace and the ban on Turkish minorities right of electing their own religious leaders should also be solved? Or the Athens support to PKK terrorism during 1990s...

Also, I have some Bulgarian friends; one of them, Palavko's biggest hate is.. Greeks. You know, they have an issue on Greek lands dating back to WWI.

[Alexandros]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

Do you think the problem about the ban on usage of the term "Turk" on West Thrace and the ban on Turkish minorities right of electing their own religious leaders should also be solved? Or the Athens support to PKK terrorism during 1990s...

Also, I have some Bulgarian friends; one of them, Palavko's biggest hate is.. Greeks. You know, they have an issue on Greek lands dating back to WWI.

Do you think the problem about the ban on usage of the term "Turk" on West Thrace and the ban on Turkish minorities right of electing their own religious leaders should also be solved?

Yes, but this is not a bilateral issue.Remember that the Turks, Pomaks and Romas are defined as a "Muslim minority" in the Lausanne treaty which both Greece and Turkey agreed to.Now, if the Turks/Pomaks/Romas want to start an association for example with the name "The Turkish/Pomak/Roma association" or the "The Turkish/Pomak/Roma minority association" they should have every right to do that.But that is up to Greece to decide - not Turkey.Considering that Turkey has expelled nearly all the Greeks from Istanbul and from the Turkish islands Imvros and Tenedos they are in no position to come and lecture Greece about human rights.Has Greece also violated the Lausanne treaty?Sure, I don`t deny that.But that was first and foremost as a reaction to what Turkey did to to the Greeks in Istanbul 1955...and so on.I`m not saying that it was right of Greece to take some discriminatory measures against the Turkish/Muslim minority because of what happened to the Greeks in Istanbul but on the other hand had Turkey not expelled the Greeks 1955 then Greece wouldn`t had taken any discriminatory measures either.

And I also agree that Greece should let the Turks, Pomaks and Romas elect their own religious leaders.But then again, that is also up to Greece.In Turkey for example it is the state that appoints the imams and muftis, not the people.So Turkey can`t come and complain...

Or the Athens support to PKK terrorism during 1990s...

There were probably some circles within the Greek state that supported PKK.But to say that there was official support from the Greek state is something you have to prove to me.

To plant a bomb in Kemal Ataturk`s birth house in order to blame the Greeks for it and to use that as an excuse to expell Greeks from Istanbul is also terrorism, no?

And guess who planted the bomb.A Turkish MIT-agent named Oktay Engin who later then became the Governor of Nevsehir in Turkey and also had a high ranked post later on in the Turkish intelligence service.It was all organized by the Turkish state - especially the Turkish military.

Also, I have some Bulgarian friends; one of them, Palavko's biggest hate is.. Greeks. You know, they have an issue on Greek lands dating back to WWI.

I haven`t heard anything lately from their Government(s) about this.And to be honest, this is the first time I hear about this.And had Bulgaria had any claims on Greek lands, this would had probably been raised during Bulgaria`s EU-negotiations.But this issue wasn`t raised so your friend must be hating his own Government instead of Greece or Greeks.

Oh, and one more thing, Greece was one of the first EU members that took the decision in the Greek parliament to let Bulgaria join the EU 2007.

[Army]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

Hm hm you are wrong on some issues:

Greeks, J'ews and Armenians in Turkey elect their own religious leaders while Turks in Greece can not.

Greeks and Armenians have their own churches and are free to use the terms 'Greek' and 'Armenian' while Turks in Greece can not.

Minority issues are no longer an internal problem; its all about human rights and international cases. Just like the closed-down-Greek-school in Turkey; Turks problem in Greece do concern Ankara and others as well.

As for the offical support to PKK; during 1990s high ranked PKK members and many others are known to be trained in Greece and also many reports (not only Turkish reports but this issue were talked in NATO-level too) show that there was a training camp of PKK near Athens.

Well, I do know Turkish history and yes, I live in here. However I do not know much about 1950 events. But nearly no one today approves those events.

[Alexandros]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

Hm hm you are wrong on some issues:

Greeks, J'ews and Armenians in Turkey elect their own religious leaders while Turks in Greece can not.

Greeks and Armenians have their own churches and are free to use the terms 'Greek' and 'Armenian' while Turks in Greece can not.

Minority issues are no longer an internal problem; its all about human rights and international cases. Just like the closed-down-Greek-school in Turkey; Turks problem in Greece do concern Ankara and others as well.

As for the offical support to PKK; during 1990s high ranked PKK members and many others are known to be trained in Greece and also many reports (not only Turkish reports but this issue were talked in NATO-level too) show that there was a training camp of PKK near Athens.

Well, I do know Turkish history and yes, I live in here. However I do not know much about 1950 events. But nearly no one today approves those events.

Greeks, J'ews and Armenians in Turkey elect their own religious leaders while Turks in Greece can not.

Greeks and Armenians have their own churches and are free to use the terms 'Greek' and 'Armenian' while Turks in Greece can not.

Here are some good articles about the situation of the Greek minority and the Greek Patriarch in Istanbul.I have inserted bold text and underlined some parts of the text in my hope that you will open your eyes to the reality:

The Halki Seminary and the Patriarchate’s Existential Crisis

By Allen Yekikan on Jul 30th, 2009

AFP reported on Thursday that the Ecumenical Patriarch in Istanbul, Bartholomew I, was hopeful Turkey would re-open a historic seminary it shut down nearly four decades ago. The Halki Orthodox

Theological Seminary, located on the island of Halki off the coast of Istanbul, was the key Patriarchical institution for educating the Greek Orthodox Community and training its future clergy for more than a century before it was closed down by the Turkish government in 1971.

The Patriarch was responding to signals last week by Turkey’s Culture Minister that Ankara is planning to re-open the Greek seminary, considered vital to the survival of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul.

The Turkish Government forcibly closed down the Seminary under a law bringing Turkish universities under the state’s control. Another law, however, made it illegal for anyone to enter the Orthodox priesthood unless they have graduated from Halki.

Since the closure of the Halki Seminary, the Patriarchate has faced insurmountable barriers in staffing the Ecumenical Patriarchate to carry out the Church’s many administrative and spiritual responsibilities. The only option left for the Patriarchate has been to bring clergymen and individuals from abroad to work at the ecumenical patriarchate, often illegally, since the Turkish government does not give them work permits.

Furthermore, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has no property rights in Turkey and is taxed beyond excess. Under Turkish law, the General Directorate of Welfare Foundations has the power to unilaterally confiscate minority properties.

Along with the Halki Seminary, the Turkish Government has confiscated (usually secretly) 75 % of the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s properties, including homes, apartment buildings, schools, land, churches, monasteries, and even cemeteries.

On March 20, 2006 the government erased the name of the Patriarchate from the ownership deed of the Orphanage of Buyukada, replacing it with the name of a minority foundation it had seized in 1997. This move resulted in the effective confiscation of the orphanage.

The Turkish government proceeded with the confiscation despite an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights by the Patriarchate in 2005. The Orphanage, which is the largest wooden building in Europe, had been a Patriarchal institution, celebrating 550 years of continuous service under the care and guidance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, preserving the Orthodox Faith, Hellenic Ideals and Greek Education.

In the eyes of the Turkish government, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not exist as a legal entity, and as a result, has virtually no rights. Although it was established in 451 AD, Turkish authorities refuse to recognize the Patriarchate as “Ecumenical” or International. Turkish law has relegated this 2,000 year-old church, which serves as the focal point of Orthodox Christendom, to a Turkish institution.

As a result, the Turkish government also controls the process by which the Ecumenical Patriarch is selected. Through illegal decrees, the government has imposed heavy restrictions on the election of the Ecumenical Patriarchs, requiring the Patriarch and the Hierarchs that elect him to be Turkish citizens. The very existence of the Ecumenical Patriarchate has been put in jeopardy as a consequence of these decrees.

Turkish law requires that even priests must be Turkish citizens. This excludes eligible clergy from around the world from attending to Turkey’s Greek community, which now numbers less than 3,000—most of which are elderly and not eligible candidates.

There are currently roughly 200 Greek Orthodox Clergymen who live in Turkey and are Turkish citizens. Without the Halki Seminary, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has been forced to send its future clerics outside the country for training. Unfortunately, most do not return home. These restrictions severely limit not only who can become a priest, but also who can become the Ecumenical Patriarch.

These policies are wearing away at the Christian presence in Turkey and threaten to eventually wipe out the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which stands as a 2,000 year-old spiritual beacon for more than 300,000 million orthodox Christians around the world.

Since 1923, successive Turkish Governments have subjected the Ecumenical Patriarchate to a protracted and systemic campaign of institutional and cultural repression, squeezing the country’s Greek minority and its religious institutions to the point of complete exhaustion and despair.

Despite direct stipulations in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne that Turkey must legally recognize and protect its religious minorities, Christian communities in Turkey currently face unfair official restrictions regarding the ownership and operation of churches and seminaries. The Turkish Government interferes in the selection of their religious leaders. Christian education has all but vanished, while freedom of expression and association, although provided for on paper, tend to get people killed .

This political climate of religious repression has, for decades, encouraged extremists to attack the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul defacing its walls and desecrating its cemeteries.

In 1955, riots broke out in Istanbul and quickly turned into pogroms against Greeks as 73 Orthodox churches and 23 schools were vandalized, burned, or destroyed; 1,004 houses of Orthodox citizens were looted; and 4,348 stores, 110 hotels, 27 pharmacies, and 21 factories were destroyed. The Greek Orthodox population in 1955 was 100,000. In 1998, a Greek Orthodox official was murdered at his church, Saint Therapon, in Istanbul. The church was then robbed and set on fire.

Growing focus on Turkey in recent years and the country’s bid to join the European Union, has raised awareness and concern about the fate of the Patriarchate among governments, organizations and people around the world.

The European Union has long asked Turkey to re-open the seminary in order to prove its commitment to human rights as it strives to become a member of the bloc.

The Turkish Government, keen to boost its European credentials as it seeks EU membership, says it may finally take steps to prevent the destruction of one of the world’s oldest Christian churches and its Congregation.

The bitter reality is that the very existence of the Patriarchate has been threatened by the very government that is now vaguely promising to save it.

Turkish authorities have been issued such promises for decades.

Link

And here`s another one:

European court rules against Turkey in Greek Orthodox church case

02.03.2009

The European Court on Human Rights (ECHR) ruled Tuesday that Turkey violated the property rights of a Greek Orthodox Church on the Aegean island of B_ozcaada.


The Foundation of the B_ozcaada Kimisis Teodoku Greek Orthodox Church had complained of the Turkish courts’ refusal to register its property in the land register under its name, relying on Article 1 of Protocol No. 1 (protection of property), Article 6 (right to a fair trial), Article 9 (right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion), Article 13 (right to an effective remedy) and Article 14 (prohibition of discrimination).

According to the ruling, Turkey was ordered to pay the foundation 105,000 euros ($132,406) compensation, including the cost of proceedings, for violating Article 1, which refers to the protection of property.

The ECHR ruled that Turkey did not violate the other articles in the application.

Link

Minority issues are no longer an internal problem; its all about human rights and international cases. Just like the closed-down-Greek-school in Turkey; Turks problem in Greece do concern Ankara and others as well.

If i were Ankara, I would focus on my problems in my own country instead.Especially since Turkey wants to join the EU and has to fulfill the EU requirements.And let me repeat what I said before: Turkey is not in a position to lecture Greece or other countries as well when it comes to human rights.

Oh, and did you know that Turkey is the worst Human Rights offender in 2008 in Europe:

Click on the link below and scroll downwards:

http://www.ncadc.org.uk/archives/filed%20newszines/Newszine102/Tableau_de_violations_2008_ENG.pdf

264 judgements against Turkey.WOW!Keep up the good work!

As for the offical support to PKK; during 1990s high ranked PKK members and many others are known to be trained in Greece and also many reports (not only Turkish reports but this issue were talked in NATO-level too) show that there was a training camp of PKK near Athens.

Provide a link to this claim.

Well, I do know Turkish history and yes, I live in here. However I do not know much about 1950 events. But nearly no one today approves those events.

Obviously you still have a lot learn.(No offence intended)

[egeli]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

The Turks, or officially the Muslim population of Greek Thrace, are required by law to have representation in the Greek Parliament. So, there will always be a at least one MP representing the Turkish minority in Greece.

What about Turkey? There has never, ever, been any MP representing minorities (Greek, xxxs, Armenians) in the TBMM (Turkish Parliament). Since the founding of the Turkish republic it has been the goal of the Turkish state to diminish these minorities. There are currently less than 100,000 Turkish citizens who are official minorities. The current population of Turkey is approaching 75 million.

By this fact alone, Turkey is far from achieving Greece's current civil liberties.

[Haykakan]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

The Turks, or officially the Muslim population of Greek Thrace, are required by law to have representation in the Greek Parliament. So, there will always be a at least one MP representing the Turkish minority in Greece.

What about Turkey? There has never, ever, been any MP representing minorities (Greek, xxxs, Armenians) in the TBMM (Turkish Parliament). Since the founding of the Turkish republic it has been the goal of the Turkish state to diminish these minorities. There are currently less than 100,000 Turkish citizens who are official minorities. The current population of Turkey is approaching 75 million.

By this fact alone, Turkey is far from achieving Greece's current civil liberties.

The words turckey and civil liberty just dont sound right togather, i wonder why.

[seruven]

Re: German museum man says Alexander the Great was mainly Greek

What about Turkey? There has never, ever, been any MP representing minorities (Greek, xxxs, Armenians) in the TBMM (Turkish Parliament). Since the founding of the Turkish republic it has been the goal of the Turkish state to diminish these minorities. There are currently less than 100,000 Turkish citizens who are official minorities. The current population of Turkey is approaching 75 million.

Ok guys, I've already stated that I'm truly and deeply sorry that Turkey has lost its Armenians, Greeks and Jéws. I disapprove the state's stance towards minorities. But this does not mean we should stay quiet when there is injustice towards Turkey. egeli, there has been MP from minorities:

http://www.rifatbali.com/images/stories/dokumanlar/cumhuriyet_doneminde_azinlik_milletvekilleri.pdf

It's in Turkish, but you'll find a list in the fourth page.