Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

[arakeretzig]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

Not Arabs but Assyrians (even though it may be hard to tell them apart these days). There already is a sizable and ghetto-ised Assyrian community in Armenia in the villages I named so it would not be totally random. Settling them in those villages helps soothen the transition to a brand new country given how they will be surrounded by fellow Assyrians who speak their language. Eventually as they send their kids to school, they'll pick up on Armenian as well. We're talking about a limited number and not the entire population. Of course the Armenian government should do its part in helping them settle.

Armenians, who had no knowledge of Arabic, all settled in poor Arab countries (your grandparents included) after the genocide and they fared well enough. Why not help a couple of hundreds of Assyrians who would be willing to do anything to get out of Iraq? Helps our population, improves our international image and helps a civilisation as old as ours that did not get lucky enough to recover after its own genocide.

how will they magically find work? how long till they learn the language provided they can? You think they'll be satisified by living in poor conditions, where in iraq, they owned their own houses, and had succesful careers and businesses? There's alot more to consider than just "let them in, and the problem will solve itself"
I know a quite a few assyrians/syriacs/Chaldeans, and most prefer to live in the west, where they have families, and a wellfare system that trumps anything that Armenia can provide.

It's a nice idea, but, in practice, I don't see it happening.

[londontsi]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

I have a lot of sympathy for the Assyrians and other Christian minorities.
I feel ashamed because I find my heart and my head are at odds to each other.

We as Armenians managed to escape with the skin of our teeth from being in the same position they are in.
We have a country, however small and however badly governed.
Despite all this we can live in the hope that one day we will be better governed and achieve our full potential as a nation.

I have also seen what a country can turn into through immigration.
There is no such thing as controlled immigration.
People have relations, extended families, make new families with one member from abroad etc..
Also economics play their part through cheap labour “growth” in the economy ( without costing the downside).
Once a precedence has been established the argument goes why shouldn’t the next group be allowed in etc.

Then you will have people taking advantage of the system phoney (Christian) conversions same as phoney marriages etc..
If there are International Grants then its Aladdin's cave for the Polititians and Government Employees.Bribery and corruption will play their part.

There is nothing worse than immigrant ghettos.
These people will resent the country for the way it has marginalised them.
When numbers are small they may be subdued however when numbers increase you have a massive social as well as security problem in your hand.

What I find most bizarre with the pro argument is twofold.
1. Its not as if this has not been tried elsewhere. It has, with catastrophic demographic results.
Good examples are Southern Spain and Southern Italy and Southern US.

2. I also find Armenians who “choose” not to live in their Fatherland recommend Non Armenians to go and live there.
For Christ sake would you give your house to somebody else to live in while you are away?
And if the answer is a NO then you have to explain why not?
There you will see the reply to your argument.


.

[arakeretzig]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

The Chaldean's need to get their act together and like the Kurds carve out an ethnic enclave within Iraq. As they have far more right to live in those lands than any, Arab occupier.

Nobody wants to live in Iraq, not even kurds/Christians/muslims themselves.
That country is hopeless. Even Armenia which has no oil has more hope than Iraq, and that's saying alot.

[UrMistake]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

Nobody wants to live in Iraq, not even kurds/Christians/muslims themselves.
That country is hopeless. Even Armenia which has no oil has more hope than Iraq, and that's saying alot.

We dont know that for sure,lets not suppose things...

If we like more armenians from Iraq to Armenia then we must find proper funds to make them a new fresh prosperous start.

[retro]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

Anti-Christian violence continues in Iraq

A series of bomb blasts targeting Christians in Baghdad has killed at least three people and injured two dozen more, security sources have said.

At least 14 roadside bombs were detonated and a mortar round was fired in Christian districts across the Iraqi capital last night and early this morning.

An interior ministry source told Reuters that the attacks were a “continuation” of the massacre at Our Lady of Salvation church which killed dozens of worshippers last week.

According to one report, today’s bombings targeted the family of one of the victims of the massacre.

The Islamic State of Iraq – an al-Qaeda front group – claimed responsibility for the Baghdad church attack and warned in a message published on militant websites that more attacks would follow. “We will open upon them the doors of destruction and rivers of blood,” the statement said.

The latest bombings follow protests by Iraqi Christians in Sweden, Australia, Britain, the Netherlands, Germany and America who urged the Iraqi government to do more to protect the country’s minorities.

About 300 protesters at the “Black March” in London called on Britain to remember its historic debt to Iraq’s Aramaic-speaing Assyrian Christians, who fought alongside Britain in two world wars.

Two Christians were also reported to have been murdered on Sunday.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/11/10/wave-of-bomb-blasts-target-christians-in-baghdad/

[londontsi]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

[B]
About 300 protesters at the “Black March” in London called on Britain to remember its historic debt to Iraq’s Aramaic-speaing Assyrian Christians, who fought alongside Britain in two world wars.

The moral of the story is never fight for another country.
Once you have sacrificed your blood they will conveniently forget about you.

War is never pleasant but if you fight for your own country at least you will feel proud that you served your country for the rest of your life.

Try to think as an Armenian ..... “I feel proud because I served Britain or France etc . Its just does not feel right.

[retro]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

Dual loyalties complicate matters. However nationality and ethnicity aren't always compatible. As young men have long been draw to volunteer in foreign wars or to pledge loyalties to states in which they do not reside or even have ties.

Whilst Sunnis regard Shias as infidels. Sectarian disputes such as the one in Iraq are nearly always socio-economic in nature. The Sunnis where always going to lose ground to the Shia in Iraq, as Shias comprise two thirds of the population of Iraq and if you ask me they are squabbling about revenues.

[retro]

Re: Baghdad church hostage drama: death toll hits 52

Thats 3-6 killed today [conficting reports!]

At least six people were killed and dozens injured in a series of bombings in Baghdad, as violence against Christians escalated across Iraq.

Prime Minister Nuri al Maliki visited the Baghdad church that was the site of a massacre last week, and pleaded with Christians not to leave Iraq. He promised that the government would “do everything possible” to encourage Christians to remain.

But on the same day, mortar shells and homemade bombs exploded at several Christian homes in Bagdad, making it clear that the campaign of violence and intimidation was continuing.

Archbishop Atanase Matti Shaba Matoka, the Syrian Catholic Archbishop of Baghdad, told the Fides news service: "Despite the proclamations, the government does nothing to stop this wave of violence that overwhelms us. There are policemen in front of the churches, but now the homes of our faithful are being attacked.

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican Secretary of State, said that “Iraqi authorities should take into serious consideration” new measures to provide security for the country’s Christian minority.

Iraq’s Christian population, which stood at about 1 million in 2003 before the start of the second US military incursion, is now estimated at something less than 500,000. That number is likely to dip further as the violence drives more families to seek security elsewhere.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=8231

[retro]

All Christians 'targets,' Iraqi militant group says

Baghdad, Iraq (CNN) -- All Christians in the Middle East are now "legitimate targets," al Qaeda in Iraq announced Wednesday, as the group's deadline for Egypt's Coptic church to release alleged Muslim female prisoners expired.

An audio message released Monday gave the church 48 hours to disclose the status of Muslim women it said are imprisoned in Coptic churches in Egypt.

The message purportedly came from the Islamic State of Iraq, which claimed responsibility for an attack on a Baghdad church Sunday that killed 58 people and wounded 75. The umbrella group includes a number of Sunni extremist organizations and has ties to al Qaeda in Iraq.

The group said the women's alleged plight was the reason it stormed the church.

Wednesday, the group released a new message saying, "The Ministry of War of Islamic State of Iraq declares that all the centers, organizations and bodies of Christian leaders and followers have become legitimate targets by the Mujahedeens, wherever our hands will reach them."

Shortly after the message was released, Egyptian police sources confirmed that security has been reinforced at churches around the country.

Additional protection was also being provided to the head of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenouda III, who is scheduled to give a sermon in Cairo in the evening, according to a police spokesman who could not be named in line with policy.

Copts are adherents of an Egyptian sect of Christianity. About nine percent of Egyptians are Coptic, according to the Central Intelligence Agency World Factbook; 90 percent of Egyptians are Muslim.

"This is a matter of extreme seriousness and we should not underestimate the threat," said Yusif Sidhom, editor-in-chief of Watani, a weekly Coptic newspaper published in Cairo. "We have to keep our eyes wide open and take all measures to ensure that our buildings and churches are not infiltrated."

Sidhom said he was encouraged by the security measures taken by the Egyptian government, as well as by the position taken by political forces in Egypt, including the Muslim Brotherhood, which has condemned the attack on the church in Baghdad and condemned threats against Egyptian Copts.

Worshippers at the Sayidat al-Nejat church in Baghdad were about to begin Sunday night services when gunmen entered the church, according to Martin Chulov, a journalist for Britain's Guardian newspaper, who was at the scene.

As many as 120 people were taken hostage, said Lt. Col. Eric Bloom, a U.S. military spokesman. The gunmen held them for hours before security forces stormed in to end the standoff, arresting eight suspects.

Most of the hostages were killed or wounded when the attackers set off explosives inside the church, Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul Qader Obeidi said.

At least two of the attackers were wearing explosive vests, which they detonated just minutes before security forces raided the church, police officials said.

The gunmen were demanding that the Iraqi government release a number of detainees and prisoners in Iraqi prisons, saying the Christian hostages would be freed in return, according to the police officials. Iraq's defense minister later said on state television that the kidnappers had demanded the release of a number of prisoners in both Iraq and Egypt.

"The sword of slaughter will not be lifted off the necks of their followers until they denounce what the dog of the Egyptian church has committed, and until they show the Mujahedeens their serious endeavor to pressure the combatant (Coptic) church for the release of our Muslim sisters, who are captive in the prisons of their monateries," the militant group said Wednesday.

The group's claim that the Coptic Church in Egypt is holding female prisoners is based on widespread rumors of Coptic women in Egypt converting to Islam and being detained by the church in an attempt to compel or persuade them to return to their original faith.

Both the Egyptian Interior Ministry and the representatives of the Coptic Church in Cairo declined to comment on the matter.

As for Iraqi Christians, the chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, said Wednesday they face "a grave terrorist threat."

Leonard Leo said Christians are among the country's "smallest religious minorities," which face a "pattern of official discrimination, marginalization and neglect."

USCIRF, an independent, bipartisan U.S. federal government commission, reviews violations of religious freedom internationally and makes policy recommendations to the administration and Congress.

"It also is time for the Obama administration to acknowledge the sectarian aspects of the conflict in Iraq, which are evident in this attack, and ensure that U.S.-Iraq policy prioritizes the plight of the country's vulnerable religious minority communities," Leo said.

"Congress already has taken this step, as reflected in House and Senate resolutions that call on the U.S. government to, among other measures, work with the Iraqi government to enhance security at places of worship and ensure that members of ethnic and religious minority communities do not suffer discrimination and can effectively convey their concerns to government. The administration should act accordingly as quickly as possible."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/11/03/iraq.christians.threat/?hpt=T2

[retro]

Re: All Christians 'targets,' Iraqi militant group says

UN condemns Iraq religious attacks

The UN Security Council has condemned militant attacks against religious targets in Iraq as France said there is a deliberate campaign to "destroy the Christian community".

The council asked the UN to provide information on the number of religious minorities driven out of Iraq because of sectarian violence.

The UN Security Council was "appalled by and condemned in the strongest terms the recent spate of terrorist attacks in Iraq, including today's," British ambassador Mark Lyall Grant said in a council press statement.

The council condemned all attacks in Iraq, "particularly those motivated by religious hatred".

French ambassador Gerard Araud said recent attacks against a Christian cathedral and other targets in Baghdad was part of "a deliberate will to destroy the Christian community".

He said Al Qaeda's bomb and gun assaults were "an attack on the diversity of Iraqi society".

Iraq's Christians are "on the frontline of the fight for democracy," he told reporters.

Mr Lyall Grant said the militant campaign "potentially poses a threat to diversity in the Middle East, which was one of the fundamental bedrocks of stability in the Middle East".

He said the Security Council had asked a UN envoy to supply information on the number of religious minorities who have been driven out of Iraq because of the strife in the country.

International concerns have been raised by the attack on Baghdad's Catholic Cathedral in which 44 worshippers, two priests and seven security personnel died. Al Qaeda claimed the assault and has called for attacks on Christians in the country.

The Security Council gave backing to the Iraqi government's efforts to end the violence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/11/3063024.htm?section=justin