Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

I have hopes for a border with Russia as well, although through Georgia. That way, the newly encompassed population will be Christian and we do not have to worry about Georgia being non-compliant. Also, I think having a Black Sea border is better than a Caspian Sea border because the latter will inevitably put us at odds with Russian and maybe Iranian energy interests, which is not something that Armenia needs.

I meant Russian border would move south to us, I can't see our border on Caspian either. Honestly, I can't see a coastal region for Armenia so we should hope for a Russian border and a bigger border with Iran from a reclaimed Nakhichevan.

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Oh, and regards azeri/turc borders being closed forever....................one day the artificial zoological garden of azerbaboonia will not exist and we'll then have a border with Russia and the border with turcey which could be opened is nowhere near the false border we have now.

I have hopes for a border with Russia as well, although through Georgia. That way, the newly encompassed population will be Christian and we do not have to worry about Georgia being non-compliant. Also, I think having a Black Sea border is better than a Caspian Sea border because the latter will inevitably put us at odds with Russian and maybe Iranian energy interests, which is not something that Armenia needs.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

David, you suppose most citizens favor opening the border and I suppose the opposite , neither of us know for sure,

Regards my wanting the rest of the world to officially recognise AG ? If a guy walks his dog down the street and the dog takes a crap, people tell him "hey, your dog just did a crap on the street." He'll probably say "Sorry, I'll clean it up". If you see a dog on it's own, walking the street and taking a dump, if you say to the dog "hey dog, you just dumped a crap on the street" then the dog just barks at you. That's pretty much what I see from turcs, barking at people.

Oh, and regards azeri/turc borders being closed forever....................one day the artificial zoological garden of azerbaboonia will not exist and we'll then have a border with Russia and the border with turcey which could be opened is nowhere near the false border we have now.

The last 13 words in this paragraph help stave off loneliness. Thanks
Artashes

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@hrai

You make a good point. Armenia's status as a nation state should not be diluted. At the same time, you don't propose for the Turk+Azeri borders to be closed forever, do you?

Georgia is a special case because it is a pushover. I am assuming that you are referring to Adjara, that is now Turk majority. I am sure that the Armenian government can take some procedures to keep Turksout.

The Armenian government, and most Armenian citizens I suppose, favor opening the border and expanding the economy.

If you acknowledge the Turks will never recognize the Genocide, then why do you care about the rest of the world? Why does it matter?

By the way, I don't believe that the Genocide will never be recognized. There are undeniable trends in Turkish society that go in positive direction. Eventually, they will have a government with significantly less @ssholes than AKP.

After all, it is the truth. Once the stigma around Armenians in the Turkish government fades, recognition should naturally follow.

David, you suppose most citizens favor opening the border and I suppose the opposite , neither of us know for sure,

Regards my wanting the rest of the world to officially recognise AG ? If a guy walks his dog down the street and the dog takes a crap, people tell him "hey, your dog just did a crap on the street." He'll probably say "Sorry, I'll clean it up". If you see a dog on it's own, walking the street and taking a dump, if you say to the dog "hey dog, you just dumped a crap on the street" then the dog just barks at you. That's pretty much what I see from turcs, barking at people.

Oh, and regards azeri/turc borders being closed forever....................one day the artificial zoological garden of azerbaboonia will not exist and we'll then have a border with Russia and the border with turcey which could be opened is nowhere near the false border we have now.

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@hrai

You make a good point. Armenia's status as a nation state should not be diluted. At the same time, you don't propose for the Turk+Azeri borders to be closed forever, do you?

Georgia is a special case because it is a pushover. I am assuming that you are referring to Adjara, that is now Turk majority. I am sure that the Armenian government can take some procedures to keep Turksout.

The Armenian government, and most Armenian citizens I suppose, favor opening the border and expanding the economy.

If you acknowledge the Turks will never recognize the Genocide, then why do you care about the rest of the world? Why does it matter?

By the way, I don't believe that the Genocide will never be recognized. There are undeniable trends in Turkish society that go in positive direction. Eventually, they will have a government with significantly less @ssholes than AKP.

After all, it is the truth. Once the stigma around Armenians in the Turkish government fades, recognition should naturally follow.

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Anyone who believes that opening the false border with turcey would be beneficial to Armenia should perhaps look at the effects on georgian economy.

Georgia is infested with turcs in all strata of trade and business, the majority of profits from these businesses are plowed straight back into turcey (that's the purpose of turc investment after all).

Armenia should maintain and strengthen ties with Iran and Russia as opposed to considering turcey. My personal thoughts are that proponents of opening the border are mainly from the Diaspora who have been influenced by the pervasive turcish propaganda. Armenia may struggle but I would prefer struggle to annihilation, be that annihilation through military or economic means. People, for the first time in centuries part of Armenia is muslim/turc/baboon-free, you now want to facilitate their return? Look to yourselves.

In the 21st century there are very few closed borders anywhere in the world, yet turcey has 2 (I include Cyprus) whilst criss-crossing another 3 borders with it's military.............50% of turcey's borders are areas of conflict.......................................... ....

(I must also say that this question has no relation to Genocide Recognition, I believe turcs will never recognise AG but my hope is that Genocide Recognition efforts are centred on increasing the number of countries from the present 20+ who officially recognise. Concerted efforts should be made on the half dozen US states, once all 50 states recognise pressure must increase on the federal government. Other regional governments in Spain and UK and elsewhere have recognised and again work should be centred on those states.)

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

How can they get any worse --- WAR ---
What do I propose --- keep the border closed ---
I and others have expressed why opening borders is wrong move.
Your accusation f me as nonsensical is unappreciated. Please try expressing yourself without personal insults
Armenia is --- not --- antagonizing those who perpetuate the --- GENOCIDE ---.
Your last sentence does not surprise me
Artashes

This is what I'm talking about. What your saying makes sense in theory, but has no connection to reality. Why on earth would Turkey invade Armenia? Let's, for a second, forget that Russia guarantees Armenia's security and that Turkey would not be destroyed in the Russian counterattack. Armenia is showing no openly hostile attitude towards Turkey's security, and vice versa (not talking about Genocide). What would be the grounds for a conflict?

Also, Turkey will not go to war with Armenia for the sake of Azerbaijan. It cares about its NATO membership too much.

Keep the border close?!?!?!?!?!?! Why?!?!?!?! Are you aware that there is gigantic net-migration from Armenia. Are you aware that, in a recent Armenian study, 40% of Armenian residents said that they would leave the country if they could? How can you possibly turn your back on an opportunity to expand the economy and, quite frankly, save the country? It feels like you are talking from the perspective of an oligarch that has no concern for the ordinary Armenian.

Saying that trade is not mutually beneficial is nonsensical. Saying that Armenia will agree with Turkish denialism if borders are opened is also nonsensical. The current Armenian government is pursuing unconditional establishment of relations with Turkey. According to you, does this mean that they will forget about Armenian Genocide soon thereafter? "If this is done in my opinion we(Hay) are actually helping to legitimize the murderers position," - what you are saying makes no sense.

I'm not saying it is antagonizing, I'm saying it won't get anywhere with the current attitude. Genocide recognition cannot be forced onto Turkey.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

You are saying that rapprochement with Turkey will undermine efforts of Genocide recognition. Well, in terms of convincing Turkey, how can they get any worse?

If you plan to criticize my idea, then what do you propose? I don't see you coming up with anything. You have yet to explain to me why opening borders is a bad thing, (other than nonsensical reasons such as that it would mean Armenia condones Turkish denial or that trade WOULD NOT be beneficial for Armenia).

Do you, at the very least, agree that antagonism will get Armenia nowhere?

I don't understand the other points you are making.

How can they get any worse --- WAR ---
What do I propose --- keep the border closed ---
I and others have expressed why opening borders is wrong move.
Your accusation f me as nonsensical is unappreciated. Please try expressing yourself without personal insults
Armenia is --- not --- antagonizing those who perpetuate the --- GENOCIDE ---.
Your last sentence does not surprise me
Artashes

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

As your sentence in your reply to me -- you( me - Artashes -) : are pretending that the current effort to recognize AG is working. That is WRONG. How did you come up with that from any of my posts?
For the record here is what I (Artashes) think about the AG recognition effort: however ineffective issue still exists but has not goal yet.
This assumption of yours about myself and/or what I have written about in these posts as your 1st sentence is for why?
You say: opening the border facilitates AG recognition as if I did not get that from your previous posts -- ----- wrong --- I clearly got that.
I am stating opening up the border is the opposite of facilitating AG recognition .
We are diametrically opposed on that.
When you say: the -- only -- way and underline -- only -- I again strongly disagree with you on that.
Neither did you address any of the points I made in ernest that I thought had merit and relavince. --?
Artashes

You are saying that rapprochement with Turkey will undermine efforts of Genocide recognition. Well, in terms of convincing Turkey, how can they get any worse?

If you plan to criticize my idea, then what do you propose? I don't see you coming up with anything. You have yet to explain to me why opening borders is a bad thing, (other than nonsensical reasons such as that it would mean Armenia condones Turkish denial or that trade WOULD NOT be beneficial for Armenia).

Do you, at the very least, agree that antagonism will get Armenia nowhere?

I don't understand the other points you are making.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@Artashes:

You are pretending that the current effort to recognize the Armenian Genocide is working. This is simply no the case, because if Turkey does not acknowledge then nothing else matters.

That is what I was trying to say all this time: That opening the border facilitates Genocide recognition. The current issue is not lack of evidence; the Turkish government is perfectly aware of the truth. It is a lack of motivation to acknowledge the truth. Nobody is forcing turkey to recognize the Genocide, so why should it?

They only way is through amicable terms. They will be able to see the truth more clearly once Armenia is no longer regarded as an enemy state.

As your sentence in your reply to me -- you( me - Artashes -) : are pretending that the current effort to recognize AG is working. That is WRONG. How did you come up with that from any of my posts?
For the record here is what I (Artashes) think about the AG recognition effort: however ineffective issue still exists but has not goal yet.
This assumption of yours about myself and/or what I have written about in these posts as your 1st sentence is for why?
You say: opening the border facilitates AG recognition as if I did not get that from your previous posts -- ----- wrong --- I clearly got that.
I am stating opening up the border is the opposite of facilitating AG recognition .
We are diametrically opposed on that.
When you say: the -- only -- way and underline -- only -- I again strongly disagree with you on that.
Neither did you address any of the points I made in ernest that I thought had merit and relavince. --?
Artashes