Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Siamanto's initial statement "2.3 There is no hard evidence that nationalist are, in general, more useful to a Nation than the average member (of the Nation.) Furthermore, many prove to be disastrous to the well being of the Nation" was a statement about nationalism in general, not armenian nationalism, specifically.

Nationalist ideologies bear some common traits. To the best of my knowledge, nazism is a nationalist ideology.
Ideologies, general speaking, even when their objectives differ wildly (e.g. nazism, bolshevism) have a lot in common, in terms of nature.
I am not equating armenian nationalism with nazism. This is ridiculous.

I'm glad you are not. However, you should be cautious when using the word nazi. Due to the highly charge nature of the word (than you western media), most will not automatically assume you are using it in an academic sense.

[axel]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Tell us, what exactly do you think of the Armenian men and women who sacrificed their lives to defend their families and land? ... Do you really think their actions were tantamount to Nazism?

Certainly not. But maybe one should first make a distinction between martyrs and propagandists. Some sacrifice their lives. Others sacrifice the lives of others. The very difference between faith and fanatism.
Nazi sympathies? Every nationalist may have had in some form at one point in his life. Everyone is allowed to err, you know... Followers of an idea can fall prey to its perversion.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

This is the strangest birthday party I have ever seen...

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

I too think you mean well but your enthusiasm leads me to believe you are still young and haven't had the chance to think deeply about some of the issues you raise or simply be confronted with reality.

Understanding doesn’t come from age and experience, in fact age got very little to do with understanding, which comes from upbringing, education and passion. My upbringing and education are the foundations of my beliefs about which I’m very passionate. Sorry, but I’m not going to list here all the related things that I have done so that you may become convinced that I actually “had the chance to think deeply” and was “confronted with reality”. You either believe me or not. It’s up to you.

Ideology is something. Life is another. And life is greater than any ideology.

I don’t regard my nationalism, Tseghakronutiun, as an ideology, it’s not an idea, it’s an Ukht, which is something that I won’t be able to explain to you in a few words or even in an essay because it has to come to you through your own desire to know it, your own efforts to learn about it, and not by means of propaganda and agitations by others. Read Nzhdeh. I did and then I put what I’ve read into practice and learned from these practical experiences. Is life greater than Our Ukht? Definitely not! Otherwise Hayk would have kissed Bel’s hand instead of risking his life, or Vardan would have went back to his castle and enjoyed his life instead of risking it.

You guys appreciate Solzhenitsyn. Read him.

Yes I do appreciate Solzhenitsyn because he is a Nationalist too.

Some of the points Siamanto raises are valid (even though he is a "petit con"). Part of his attitude is not, nor is his tone. And crusader's remark as to him effectively displaying the same kind of behaviour as the one he denounces is justified. If you hope to convince someone or at least bring him closer to your views, you refrain from ending your post with a "are you that simple minded?"

Thank you. And I hope Siamanto realizes that too.

One of the big problems I see on these boards is the failure to reach out to people expressing different views and consider they may, if not totally accurate, contain some partial truth. There are hypocrites and charlatans on all sides, useful idiots as well. But there are also people of integrity and value with differing perceptions.

I agree with the above statement and I’m ready to listen to and to reach to just about any Armenian as long as they don’t insult and ridicule our history and beliefs. I will never allow anyone to disrespect our martyrs, from Hayk and Vardan and all the way to our fallen brothers in Artsakh. If you are not prepared “khorhanal irentz shirimnerin” then get lost and quickly. Whether you are an influential businessman, or a powerful politician or even a dangerous gangster – one thing you need to know is that you would never ever be as influential, as powerful and as dangerous as the State. So, at the end of the day you are either with us or against us. (By the way Mr Bush didn’t invent that fraise). And it doesn’t matter if you are a nationalist, a businessman or simply an Armenian who wants to help his people – you should work with the State because anything else you do is either useless exercise or treason.

Actually if one wants to achieve progress, one has to take into account one's critics seriously (without paying too much attention to where they originate from)

If you mean achieving “progress” by allowing someone who under cover of “democracy”, “religious freedom” and other similar garbage criticizes our country then I’m completely against such a “progress”. In fact the only way to achieve real progress is to put all these characters on the plane and deport them.

There is an absolute truth. But nobody owns it apart from God. A self-proclaimed nationalist is no god.

I agree. But what is with this “self-proclaimed” part? I mean who and/or what decides who is a nationalist and who isn’t? I personally regard both, you and Siamanto, as nationalists because both of you love your nation. Am I wrong? There is no fundamental difference between us except that I’m Nzhdehakan, which in my humble opinion is the best way for our nation and I sincerely hope that you will also become one.

Well nazism proved to be disastrous for Germany. I hope you do not dispute this claim.

As a matter of fact I do dispute it. Nazism was not disastrous for Germany, some very bad decisions were. Nazism helped German people to regain their pride and their country. If you think otherwise then it’s because history is written by the winners and you are basing your knowledge of Nazism on these books. And don’t dismiss me as a Nazi, I repeat: I’m Nzhdehakan.

There are german nationalists who were critical of the nazis, even despised them for their primitiveness (Arthur Möller van den Bruck or Ernst Jünger come to mind, you can look them up on wikipedia) Ernst Jünger come

If you call being able to connect with the masses “primitiveness” then yes, Hitler was primitive when compared to a powerhouse like Möller van der Bruck, who was a great nationalist writer but not a leader of the masses like Hitler was. While Möller van der Bruck among many other intellectuals inspired Hitler, it was Hitler who inspired the Nation. As for Jünger then I haven’t found a one single reference where he said anything bad about Hitler while Hitler was alive. After his death, yeah he did, but why is that remarkable? Anyone can criticize a dead man and become a part of an orchestrated hate parade.

Nobody knows what lies deep in the heart of someone and in this light, your statement as to "nationalists" deserving to be immune from any form of prosecution I find extremely worrying. Have you ever considered the possibility that "nationalist" ranks might get infiltrated by some very nasty elements?

It is impossible to have “nasty elements” within the ranks of the nationalists that I was referring to. Trust me there are no accidental people in this game because they are flushed out way before they even come close to the stadium. So, please don’t be worried.

If you simply make an effort, try to think more deeply beyond slogans and propaganda, read from other sources (including ones hostile to your point of view) so as to confront your ideas with others, reconsider some of your positions, then I won't have wasted my time writing this.

Slogans and propaganda don’t influence me whatsoever and I do read all the sources. I sincerely hope that you will embrace Garegin Nzhdeh’s ideas and that this wasn’t waste of my time either.

Please do not discard this post as "emotional" or "naive" or condescending. I am trying to be constructive. Thanks.

I don’t. You are being constructive and I appreciate that.

[Sip]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Nazism was not disastrous for Germany, some very bad decisions were.

You mean the like the "decision" to embrace Nazism?

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

You mean the like the "decision" to embrace Nazism?

The war against Russia was not all about fighting Bolshevism it was also about creating "Lebensraum" for Germans (living space) in USSR, in other words enslaving Soviet people. And that Mr. Sip, IMHO was a very bad decision on Hitler's part.

Even after the war the vast majority of Germans never regreted living under the Nazi rule because it brought them the highest standards of living in Europe if not the world, and it also gave them back their pride as a Nation. In short - they genuinely embraced Nazism.

After the war they were able to literally rebuild their country from scratch. And contrary to the popular belief it wasn't thanks to the Marshall Plan, it was thanks to Nazism that instilled in every German an undying love for their country and their people. At the end of the war Nazi rule was dead but the patriotism tought by them was not, and it was that patriotism that united all the Germans to build one of the best (if not the best) country in the world.

[Sip]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Even after the war the vast majority of Germans never regreted living under the Nazi rule because it brought them the highest standards of living in Europe if not the world, and it also gave them back their pride as a Nation. In short - they genuinely embraced Nazism.

I don't know how you are coming to these conclusions but I have spent significant amounts of time in Germany (years) and the vast majority of them today are not only very embarrassed for even being remotely associated with Nazism, but also will do anything in their power from letting the very small segment of their population that might be inclined to subscribe to those ideologies from gaining any sort of momentum.

Now this might all be a result of up-bringing and more than 50 years of cultural reprogramming (I don't know how the Germans were right after- or even during- the war), but it is how things are now.

By the way, there is a huge difference between Nazism (socialism) and patriotism.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Originally Posted by Sip. I don't know how you are coming to these conclusions but I have spent significant amounts of time in Germany (years)...

Habe Ich auch.
It's nice to know that you have lived there and know things first hand rather than through the Internet, books etc. It makes this conversation even more interesting.

Were you stationed in one of the many US bases? If yes, then most probably it was in the good old K-town, which is definetely not your average German stadt as it has 50 odd thousand foreign troops. There is so much American influence in that town it's not funny!

...and the vast majority of them today are not only very embarrassed for even being remotely associated with Nazism, but also will do anything in their power from letting the very small segment of their population that might be inclined to subscribe to those ideologies from gaining any sort of momentum.

Do you to seriously expect mature and intelligent Germans to open up to an American servicemen they hardly know? Specially in a country where nearly everything that has anything to do with Nazism is banned by law. If it's the average German youngster you got your impressions from then he is even more brainwashed and hollow than most other Western youngsters due to the fact that Germany is literally invaded not only by the US troops but also by the US propaganda machine (TV shows, movies, music, magazines etc.).

Now this might all be a result of up-bringing and more than 50 years of cultural reprogramming (I don't know how the Germans were right after- or even during- the war), but it is how things are now.

I'm glad you realize that, because that's exactly what it is: 50 years of cultural reprogramming. Somewhat similar to what we had in Armenia during the Soviet times with regards to ARF. There are still some Armenians in Armenia who believe that Dashnaks were evil and their deeds were treacherous. These are results of the Soviet propaganda, and that generation (40-70 year olds) most probably would never change their views.

Back to Germany: It's only a matter of time when Deutschland will change it's attitude towards its recent history, and it will start at the top level, with the government and intellectuals. This change will simply remove all those restrictions on the freedom of speech and allow people to openly discuss their own history and most importantly it will enable them to get rid of this artificially created and vigorously maintained by the foreign elements feel of collective guilt.

By the way, there is a huge difference between Nazism (socialism) and patriotism.

I can't remember who said it but he said it right: "Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first". Guess who came first in the Nazi books? That's right - the German people. ...There is no difference let alone "a huge" one, Mr Sip.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Habe Ich auch.

Back to Germany: It's only a matter of time when Deutschland will change it's attitude towards its recent history, and it will start at the top level, with the government and intellectuals. This change will simply remove all those restrictions on the freedom of speech and allow people to openly discuss their own history and most importantly it will enable them to get rid of this artificially created and vigorously maintained by the foreign elements feel of collective guilt.

Perhaps they can start by abolishing the lawthat makes it illegal to name your child Adolf.

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Thursday, January 17, 2008
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SMOKE & MIRRORS
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Nigoghos Sarafian (1905-1973): “Our history is a litany of lamentation, anxiety, horror, and massacre. Also deception and abysmal naiveté mixed with the smoke of incense and the sound of sacred chants.”
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In the Preface to his ANECDOTA or SECRET HISTORY, the Byzantine historian Procopius of Caesaria (500-565 AD) writes that, by exposing past blunders, historians warn future leaders not to repeat them in the hope their incompetence will never be exposed and their reputation will remain unblemished. If it weren’t for historians, he goes on, we would never have known about “the dissolute career of Semiramis and the frenzy of Sardanapalus and Nero…”
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Nothing comes more naturally to a blundering leader than to cover up his incompetence and to misrepresent his liabilities as assets, and his military defeats as moral victories. To this type of frauds parading as statesmen, and to their hirelings and dupes, honest observers will be branded as hostile witnesses and even enemy agents to be silenced, ostracized, and persecuted.
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If you listen carefully to our sermonizers, speechifiers, and dime-a-dozen pundits, you will notice that their central message is always the same, namely, we are in good hands -- our leaders have done nothing wrong – it’s all someone else’s fault – the West betrayed us and the Turks are bloodthirsty savages, thieves, rapists, and liars. Hitler blamed the xxxs. We blame the world, after which we expect its sympathy and support.
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After experiencing centuries of oppression and degradation under ruthless alien despots, we cling to the absurd notion that God is on our side, there is justice in this world, and sooner or later victory will be ours. All we have to do is trust the judgment of our bosses and bishops, and support them by sending “mi kich pogh.”
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Where there is leadership without accountability there will also be taxation without representation.
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