Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

This brings up another question. Even if what they taught you were myths or half truth why is that wrong. Its call conditioning, something all nations do including the United States. Why do you choose to believe the myths of foreigners, but when it comes to Armenian matters you place things under an electron microscope? The answer is self-hate and ignorance.

VERY TRUE! I am sure they told Americans the truth, that the Vietnam war was about defending markets and economic growth! Americans lost limbs and lives because "communism was a threat", however, the Soviets did not have a functional army nor a war chest at the time. It was not a battle of ideologies, it was a battle to defend markets. I am not implying that the downfall of communism was necessarly a "bad thing", but rather, all governments must put a spin on national interests.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Dude, the first Armenian nation in the 20th century was created with a pen and paper not a rifle. The second too. Prior to the 20th century, when did ethnic Armenians defend an Armenian nation with recognized borders.

You are utterly incoherent. I mean, I can't even figure out what the hell you are now blabbering about?

Are you insinuating that the First Republic in 1918 was not fought for? Are you insinuating that the Second Republic (1991) did not come into existence in the midst of a major war with a neighboring nation? Did you even know that Armenian nationalists fought Soviet troops in Armenia and Artskah before the official declaration of independence?

I mean just how ignorant are these people we are dealing with here? I know I could not expect much from Ara fans, but this is just ridiculous...

When I was in an organized Armenian youth group years ago, they tried to impress upon me that Armenians ruled the Roman Empire for about a decade.

Abush, they taught you that Metsn Tigran created an Armenian Empire stretching from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean Sea that fought the Romans for ten years. You were simply just too stupid to understand what's being taught to you. Besides, if one can consider the the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) as "Roman," then one could rightfully state that Armenians ruled Rome for many-many decades.

Perhaps instead of searching for "famous Armenians" and "Jew" related articles to post here you should be studying Armenian history. I seldom come across Armenians as shallow and ignorant as you.

This brings up another issue. Even if what they taught you were myths or half-truths - why is that necessarily wrong? Such practices are called conditioning, propaganda, something 'all' civilized/modern nations do - including and especially the United States. So, why do you choose to believe the myths of foreigners, or unwittingly accept them, but when it comes to Armenian matters you place things under an electron microscope?

The answer is self-hate and ignorance.

You and your interlocutors are living proof for me that Armenia must 'never' attempt to practice democracy.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Dude, the first Armenian nation in the 20th century was created with a pen and paper not a rifle.

"Dude", this is the most ignorant statement ever made on this forum.

I keep waiting for you to have an epiphany and embrace being Armenian, but you are too far gone.

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Dude, the first Armenian nation in the 20th century was created with a pen and paper not a rifle. The second too. Prior to the 20th century, when did ethnic Armenians defend an Armenian nation with recognized borders.

Any struggle to form a nation is considered a nationalistic struggle. Even the very American satalites that roam space and monitor the activities of the world are labeled in treaties with the USSR as "national technical means". Yes, whether by pen or rifle, they struggled to form a geographic area known as Armenia. Regardless, your point does not change the fact that Armenians have been struggle for authonomy and, furthermore, it does not change the fact that anyone with a citizenship is a nationalist. The reality is that at the core of Ara Baliozian is a nationalist, he would have to move to a island on international waters in order for him to rid himself of his "nationalism" or else he, as a Canadian is more of a nationalist, than, I, both as a American and as a Armenian. His income with benefits like healthcare is generated by the state versus, me, who has to work and pay for my own expenses, meaning, I am not tied to the state.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Dude, the first Armenian nation in the 20th century was created with a pen and paper not a rifle. The second too. Prior to the 20th century, when did ethnic Armenians defend an Armenian nation with recognized borders.

There were obviously Armenians well before the 19th and 20th century, heck, the last Olympic champion before the modern era was an Armenian boxer known as Varazdetes a.k.a. Varastad.

When I was in an organized Armenian youth group years ago, they tried to impress upon me that Armenians ruled the Roman Empire for about a decade.

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Virgil, you attack and humiliate yourself everytime you decide to press "enter".

Recent polls of Armenians, interested in politics, conclude that 46% of them trust their President, while only 27% trust their government. The latter figure improves towards the capital. Half of the Armenians polled stated no interest in politics - that's probably because they are too busy trying to survive; of the remaining, 26% stated they had no idea what the national policy of the country was.http://www.azg.am/EN/2008013003

And do you think of the 270 million Americans, 100% of them vote or give xxxx about politics? They are busy building wealth or trapped in the cycle of economic enslavement via corporate advertising gimmiks, if you pulled a average American off the streets, they would only know what the media feeds them regarding politics, if that at all. I bet you, more Americans know about the life of Cele-Britney versus Senator Obama or any of their elected representatives.

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

If you hold a citizenship of any kind, you are a nationalist. Nationality is documented citizenship, alligence to a state via documentation, conversly, ethnicity is shared cultural beliefs, values, and traditions that can not be measured by a any "document" or artificial means. The reality is this, you as a American are a nationalist, you as a Canadian are a nationalist, anyone holding citizenship is a nationalist.

The Armenian freedom-fighters are no different than the colonist fighting the British, both were fighting to secure a nation and authonomy, how can they not be considered nationalist? Crusader is right, they were not just fighting to survive, they were fighting for selfless ambitions and I am going to disregard this insult to them, but, again, I wonder how far these individuals that claim this would fair if they were to state the same sentiments towards the colonial Americans that fought against the British. I dare them to go to a public locale and let the blue blooded Americans know that their ancestors fought so they can save a few cents on tea tax.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

ADL = Armenian Democratic Liberal party?http://adl.hayway.org/default_zone/gb/html/page-93.html

No, thanks, I tend to stay out of organized Armenian politics, its so messy.

Nice try...you know eactly what I meanwith ADL. Don't make me spell it out for you Abe.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

A nationalist without a county is like a hoof without a horse.

In simplest forms: Ottoman Armenians who took arms against Ottoman Turkey, at its demise, did so for likely one of three reasons:

1. They had to because they either died at the hands of the invading forces or their own country's henchmen (survival).

2. They had to protect themselves and their property against their own country's henchmen (survival).

3. They were revolting against the Ottoman government.

In the end, regardless of category, they were freedom fighters not nationalists.

What Armenian nation existed in 1915? You don't understand the difference between nationality and ethnicity.

This is very simplistic. There were obviously nationalist present at that time. Unfortunately not enough of them.

Regardless of how you define the Armenian men and woman who fought against Turks at that time, they started an armed struggle which lead to the creation of an Armenian state. People with no sense of nationality don't just stumble onto founding a state.

Oh and the difference between nation and a people (or ethnicity, as you say), is that people are those who live for today...a nation is those who came before, with all the values they created, their legacy. The nation is also those who have not been born yet.

Do you really think those "freedom fighters" were living for "today"? Do you not think that when a freedom fighter picked up his gun that he did not have the past and the future in mind? Was it strictly about survival and then once the fighting stopped...back to Turkish rule?

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Virgil, you attack and humiliate yourself everytime you decide to press "enter".

Freakyfreaky, I was not referring to you and why are you trying to defend Ara? What has he done for you, but marginalize you and your family's struggle? I don't understand why you choose to defend this idiot. You can not have a coherent debate with him, many have tried, including me. Furthermore, his "original ideas" are just recycled material.