Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

I do not dispute this fact but if you read Sip's sentence with some attention ("since Hitler has always been the symbolic anti-xxx, then in the minds of those "nationalists" it only makes sense to start to embrace Nazism"), he's alluding to something quite different.

Well, even that particular statement by the "Sip" is irrational for it presumes that anti-Jewism is exclusively a Nazi creation. For centuries humanity has been struggling against organized Jewry. Most Armenians who are opposed to organized Jewry, not individual Jews, do so for very rational and viable reasons.

You definitely should, esp. the second volume. Maybe Haytoug has read it (a french translation was published a few years ago)

Well, I will do so as soon as an Armenian or English version is published. Your suspicions regarding the English translation is very probable. Unfortunately, I'm only bilingual.

Please, let's keep personal information within the PM realm.

I was refering to the "theory" which is pretty shallow at best. If you want to refer to the reality of the third reich, then it is something quite different. One would have a few surprises in fact if one would take a close look at the "aryanity" of some party members including top officials.

Please tell us what is the theory you are referring to and where is it found in Nazi official ideology? Sadly, most of what we think we know about Nazis is what has been told or revealed to us by the victors of the Second World War. If you are referring to their sociological concept of capabilities of certain races over others, then I must agree with them. If you agree that a German Sheppard is more intelligent/more capable than an Afghan Hound, in other words, if you agree that one breed of dog is more capable than another breed of dog, then you - by theory - agree with the fundamental aspects of Nazi style racism. Besides which, biological racism is a 19th century western creation not a Nazi creation.

However, let's look at the racist aspect of Nazism as one would look at the modern western notions that certain sociopolitical systems on earth are superior to others. If the Nazis used race as a way to excite their population to battle the savages of the East, the western world today uses the pretexts of human rights, women rights, freedom and democracy to excite its population to battle the savages of the East. If the Nazis were ruthless in their treatment of Jews, or in their burning down of entire towns for supporting partizans/insurgents - the western world (successors of Bolshevism and Nazism) is equally guilty of murderous economic sanctions against undesirables nations, sanctions that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. The western world is also equally guilty of numerous wars of exploitation waged across the world that has been responsible for the deaths of countless numbers of civilians.

Whether you kill innocent people by executing them in a ditch somewhere in the Ukraine, or by beheading them in an undisclosed location in Afghanistan, or by dropping "smart bombs" on their homes in Iraq - the end result is that innocent life is being taken for political purposes. Thus, it's all a matter of perspective and objectivity. Victors write history books and condition public perception. And as bad as Nazis may have been, they would pale in comparison to blood lust of the early Bolsheviks and todays consortium of western aggressors.

Incidentally, it's always a pleasure for me debating topics with someone as intelligent, wise and rational as you.

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

WHY WRITERS WRITE
*******************
When asked why he writes, a writer is quoted as having replied: "So that idiots may have something to think about in twenty years."
*
The problem with most Armenian writers is that they want to achieve popularity long before they are murdered by a foreign tyrant or starved by their fellow Armenians.
*
Am I right or wrong? I am not sure. But I know this: if I am wrong, my voice will be drowned by a chorus of loud-mouth chauvinists, charlatans, partisans, skinheads, and panchoonies, none of whom will ever dare to question the authority of any one of our bosses, bishops, and benefactors.
*
If all Turks vanished from the face of the earth tomorrow, Armenians wouldn't miss them because an Armenian friend wouldn't be much different from a Turkish enemy.
*
Charles Péguy: "Out of ignorance and a sense of duty most decent people are liable to turn into criminals."
*
You can't talk ethics with a bishop: he thinks he has a monopoly on the subject. You can't talk sharing power with a boss: he thinks he is the best-qualified man for the job.
You can't talk money with a benefactor: he won't listen to anyone who makes less than he does.
*
Scottish proverb: "The devil's boots don't creak."
*
All persecuted minorities and victims tend to view freedom as the freedom to persecute and victimize.
*
La Rochefoucauld: "No man is clever enough to know all the evil he does."
*
"I paint with my prick," Renoir is quoted as having said.
Some of my readers think with theirs.

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

nazism, bolshevism, fascism -- only ottomanized armenians (armenian on the outside, turkish on the inside) would see anything remotely positive in them. as for zionism: it is a reaction to universal and millennial anti-semitism, and as such, understandable. / ara

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Monday, January 21, 2008
*******************************************
THE LAMENT OF A WRITER
****************************************
“I am ashamed to call myself an Armenian,” Vahé Oshagan is reported to have said when one of his books was given a negative reception in our weeklies. Once upon a time I too identified myself with my fellow Armenians to such an unreasonable degree that I was embarrassed when any one of them behaved badly. I know now that Armenians, all Armenians without exception, are first and foremost individuals before being members of a tribe or nation; and as individuals, they should be judged as individuals. If an Armenian chooses to make an ass of himself in public, so be it, that is his choice, not mine or anyone else’s. If, as an individual he is free, so am I, and I freely choose not to be responsible for his actions.
*
Only dumb people assess themselves as smart, believe in their own assessment, and brag about it. And it doesn’t take much to be a victim. It takes even less to wallow in victimhood. Now then, go ahead and say, I am proud to be an Armenian because I am smart and because I come from a long line of perennial victims who have harmed no one but themselves and one another.
*
Whenever odars are given the opportunity or care enough to judge us, they will do so not by what we say about ourselves but our history; and no matter how you slice it, our history is a sad one, or, to put it more bluntly, it is nothing to brag about. If we have anything to brag about, it is our literature. But who reads Armenian writers these days? Not even Armenians. If Vahé Oshagan were alive today, I would tell him he has nothing to be ashamed of. After all, his book was read and reviewed by a handful of Armenians, which means, he was better off than most of our classics.
#

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Not quite, axel. Unless irrationality makes sense to you. Some want to emphasize the "xxxish role" in the Armenian Genocide for two fundamental reasons. 1) The xxxish role in the Armenian Genocide is the least known factor. 2) Manymost Armenians think xxx are friends.

I do not dispute this fact but if you read Sip's sentence with some attention ("since Hitler has always been the symbolic anti-xxx, then in the minds of those "nationalists" it only makes sense to start to embrace Nazism"), he's alluding to something quite different.

I have not read the book in question

You definitely should, esp. the second volume. Maybe Haytoug has read it (a french translation was published a few years ago)

http://www.amazon.fr/Deux-si%C3%A8cles-ensemble-1917-1972-sovi%C3%A9tique/dp/2213615187/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1200906043&sr=8-1

available in russian on the web: http://sila.by.ru

The belief that Nazism was merely a form of "biological racism" is in itself a "primitive" understanding of the matter without even getting into the ethical debate. Perhaps you need to be reminded that Nazis had close political/economic/cultural dealings with Arabs, Hindus and Asians.

I was refering to the "theory" which is pretty shallow at best. If you want to refer to the reality of the third reich, then it is something quite different. One would have a few surprises in fact if one would take a close look at the "aryanity" of some party members including top officials.

On the other hand, how should one understand the treatment of ukrainians in "liberated ukraine"? (as reported by Ernst Nolte in Der europäische Bürgerkrieg 1917 - 1945 http://www.amazon.com/europ%C3%A4isc...0906455&sr=8-3)

But enough said on this topic.

Armenian nationalism would very much benefit from some putting their unhealthy fascination for nazis aside. End of statement.

I'm sure that Dr. Junkestein - aka Armenian - and the other hooligans of the forum...

Siamanto, don't expect me to engage into systematic bashing of fellow armenians. You should really make an effort and stick to the field of ideas. Nobody prevents you from defending your positions. You must realize that your current and past behaviour haven't improved matters in the direction you hoped for. So either your approach is not right or the cause is already lost. In both cases, there is no reason for you to continue with your present attitude.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

I would not underestimate the fact that they are relatively organized as they act "synchronously" and collaborate
Most of all, when hooligans - or other organized gangs - invade a "neighborhood," running away is not the answer: They should be confronted until they learn to respect the neighborhood's culture and members.

Listen to yourself: "they are relatively organized as they act "synchronously" and collaborate". You sound like a member of Tsarskaya Okhranka of Nicholas II in persuit of Revolutionaries. That's a pretty sad attitude you have.

Aren't you ashamed of yourself to call fellow Armenians, whos only "fault" is their love for their people and country, "they", "Junkenstein", "*urkish", "hooligans" etc? Don't you realise that your attitude is wrong?

Perhaps you misunderstand what I and my fellow Armenians here stand for. I mean, I'm not perfect, far from it, but I'm crystal clear on what I believe in and for what I stand for, and if you are unclear then just go and simply read Garegin Nzhdeh and understand my position. Why don't you do that and then come here and discuss Tseghakronutiun with us?

I don't want to put you in the same category as arabaliozian, I'm afraid he is lost for good, but I don't think you are. So, please think about it and try to change your attitude because it doesn't do anyone any good.

[Siamanto]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Some of the points Siamanto raises are valid (even though he is a "petit con"). Part of his attitude is not, nor is his tone.

I will repeat what I told HayotzAmrotz - as it is applies to everybody:
"I reply to a poster using the tone of his/her text; so, if what you see - i.e. a reflection of yourself - does not seem pleasant, then you should take a good look and reconsider your own self." Keep in mind Velvet Underground's "I'll Be Your Mirror" or Funkadelic's "Don't Produce The Cause, If You Don't Like The Effect."

After a certain point, I allow myself to say it as it is, and as long as I'm not given incentives to change the tone of my replies. Otherwise, why should/would I deprive myself of the pleasure of savoring the "poetic violence of the Nietzschean Verb" as can be savored fine wine?

It seems everyone in this (heated) debate is quite familiar with nazism, fascism, zionism.

I'm sure that Dr. Junkestein - aka Armenian - and the other hooligans of the forum have read "Nazism for Dummies" or some vulgarization in a conspiracy theory book, site or article.


P.S. During an interview with Vassilis Alexadis, the commentator quoted his book (about a Greek monastery) where he says: "Priests pray, they don't think." It may not make you smile, but a smile surfaced upon my face when I heard it.

[Siamanto]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

1- My criticism of the hooligans of this forum has strictly nothing to do with nationalism: it's about hooliganism.

On the bright side, no one really takes them seriously ... they have managed to reduce themselves to the same level of typical internet spam. Unfortunately though, that has meant that a lot of people have just learned to ignore the forum entirely and not come back.

I would not underestimate the fact that they are relatively organized as they act "synchronously" and collaborate
Most of all, when hooligans - or other organized gangs - invade a "neighborhood," running away is not the answer: They should be confronted until they learn to respect the neighborhood's culture and members.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Sip, I'm afraid your explanation appears to make sense.

Not quite, axel. Unless irrationality makes sense to you. Some want to emphasize the "Jewish role" in the Armenian Genocide for two fundamental reasons. 1) The Jewish role in the Armenian Genocide is the least known factor. 2) Manymost Armenians think Jew are friends.

Simple as that.

One wonders how this could have been possible without the help of so-called "international finance". If you have the chance to read Solzhenitsyn's book "Two hundred years together" on the history of xxxs and Russians in the last two centuries (not available in english to this day), you will note that "England" was able to put extreme economic pressure on Russia back in the nineteenth century so that additional rights be granted to the xxxish minority.

I have not read the book in question but Britain's role in leading Russian Jewry is well known.

One simply wonders how this was not possible to achieve with a strangled Germany ruined at the end of WW1, having to pay heavy tributes to the victors and later hit by the 1929 crash. On the contrary the 30s witnessed a true economical miracle. Quite miraculous indeed. Yhvh's "invisible hand" possibly?

Nazis did have some outside financial support. However, it seems that they broke away from their early financiers at a certain point. Moreover, due to the very nature of Nazism itself, in ways similar to Communism, it is able to survive without outside support. The fact that a powerful ideological movement could potentially free a nation from the grasps of the financial elite worried the elite.

As to nazism in itself, its biological racism, you may want to call that rational. Allow me to call it primitive without even getting into the ethical debate.

The belief that Nazism was merely a form of "biological racism" is in itself a "primitive" understanding of the matter without even getting into the ethical debate. Perhaps you need to be reminded that Nazis had close political/economic/cultural dealings with Arabs, Hindus and Asians.

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

My only explanation thus far is that it seems like the hatred of Turk has been shifting to the ever-present hatred of xxx and since Hitler has always been the symbolic anti-xxx, then in the minds of those "nationalists" it only makes sense to start to embrace Nazism as the model for Armenian Nationalism ... ?

Sip, I'm afraid your explanation appears to make sense.

Nazism took Germany from utter ruin to the top of the world in several years

One wonders how this could have been possible without the help of so-called "international finance".
If you have the chance to read Solzhenitsyn's book "Two hundred years together" on the history of xxxs and Russians in the last two centuries (not available in english to this day), you will note that "England" was able to put extreme economic pressure on Russia back in the nineteenth century so that additional rights be granted to the xxxish minority.
One simply wonders how this was not possible to achieve with a strangled Germany ruined at the end of WW1, having to pay heavy tributes to the victors and later hit by the 1929 crash. On the contrary the 30s witnessed a true economical miracle. Quite miraculous indeed. Yhvh's "invisible hand" possibly?

As to nazism in itself, its biological racism, you may want to call that rational. Allow me to call it primitive without even getting into the ethical debate.

Nazism's legacy? the annihilation (genocide) of the german nation. a whole generation sacrificed, eight million dead (at least) and 20 million on the russian side (to mention the not-so-often mentioned second-class victims of this conflict). Still a positive, though, the foundation of the state of Israel and now a memorial right next to the Bundestag. No memorial for german victims to this day btw but eternal collective guilt on the shoulders of the post-nazi generations.


Getting back to earlier messages,
Ara's defense a few posts ago as to him refering to "european fascism" in his comment, not to fascism in itself, doesn't seem quite honest (as usual)
Even so, maybe we should mention Mussolini's xxxish mistresses (his relationship with the influential Margherita Sarfatti lasted some twenty years or so), General Franco's not so aryan roots or the role of some italian xxxish intellectuals in shaping up fascism as an ideology?

At the same time, Spanish diplomats in the Axis countries actively protected xxxs and Spain itself became a safe haven for xxxish refugees, as Franco refused to implement anti-Semitic laws, as demanded by the Axis. Franco returned to complete neutrality in 1943, when the tide of the war had turned decisively against Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_under_Franco

It seems as though our very own intellectual & dissident Ara B. holds his readers for uncultured cretins.