Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

[arabaliozian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

the natives are restless!

[jgk3]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

No it does not, jgk3. I know you are smarter than that. Every single revolutionary movement throughout history had 'outside' support. A small group of men and women seeking freedom can never have success against large powers without outside support. Case in point, the American Revolution. Put aside what American 'patriots' would like to believe. Once you study the American revolution you will see that without the French expeditionary force sent to help out the revolutionaries the American colonies would have not been able to gain their freedom from the British. It was French inspiration, intellectual and political, that encouraged the Americans to seek independence. France got independence for America. Take the French equation out, I can make similar statements about many other nation as well.

Of course we Armenians needed western support, especially that of Russia. Armenian nationalists naturally had to find inspiration and support outside of Armenian lands to organize their movement. What intellectual dwarfs like Ara fail to point out is that with Imperial Russian support Armenians had soundly defeated the Turks in Anatolia by 1916 and had liberated Armenian lands all the way to Van. It was the Bolshevik revolution that ruined this positive situation for us. Due to the Bolshevik revolution the Russians were forced to abandon their Anatolian front. And due to the Bolsheviks, the West, that had supported Armenians until then, decided then that is would be better to win over a strategic nation like Turkey before it too fell to the Bolsheviks. Within the chaos of the First World War and the Bolshevik revolution that it spawned we Armenians simply fell through the geopolitical cracks. And none of our revolutionaries could have foreseen it. Armenian history is very complex and self-styled "intellectuals" like Ara need to keep their mouths shut about it.

I suppose you're right, now that you pointed that example out as it's a good model. Everything in this world is dictated by diplomacy, not by individual and isolated strife of nations. The latter is almost always complimentary to the former.

I still don't understand why you care for his comments? It's obvious what he would more-or-less say. You don't even need to ask him, just read his endless rants...

Although his ideology never changes, asking him specific questions can make him give specific answers, whether or not it's a direct reply, or if it's contained in his next post of notes/comments. I do this to see his take on it. There are many ways an individual can perceive another and exploring this phenomenon is important to me.

[karoaper]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

... they built the empire for the Turks and Turks rewarded them with death.

Correction: they rewarded them with "turkification". Death and brutality was the casual Ottoman way of dealing with peoples who had a non-turkified identity and who dared to demand justice, tolerance and liberty.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Although what he said about our revolutionaries of the past, misplacing our trust in European powers, sounds like a logical assertion to me.

No it does not, jgk3. I know you are smarter than that. Every single revolutionary movement throughout history had 'outside' support. A small group of men and women seeking freedom can never have success against large powers without outside support. Case in point, the American Revolution. Put aside what American 'patriots' would like to believe. Once you study the American revolution you will see that without the French expeditionary force sent to help out the revolutionaries the American colonies would have not been able to gain their freedom from the British. It was French inspiration, intellectual and political, that encouraged the Americans to seek independence. France got independence for America. Take the French equation out, I can make similar statements about many other nation as well.

Of course we Armenians needed western support, especially that of Russia. Armenian nationalists naturally had to find inspiration and support outside of Armenian lands to organize their movement. What intellectual dwarfs like Ara fail to point out is that with Imperial Russian support Armenians had soundly defeated the Turks in Anatolia by 1916 and had liberated Armenian lands all the way to Van. It was the Bolshevik revolution that ruined this positive situation for us. Due to the Bolshevik revolution the Russians were forced to abandon their Anatolian front. And due to the Bolsheviks, the West, that had supported Armenians until then, decided then that is would be better to win over a strategic nation like Turkey before it too fell to the Bolsheviks. Within the chaos of the First World War and the Bolshevik revolution that it spawned we Armenians simply fell through the geopolitical cracks. And none of our revolutionaries could have foreseen it. Armenian history is very complex and self-styled "intellectuals" like Ara need to keep their mouths shut about it.

Beyond that however, I do find his words are contradictory to the fighting resilience I see in many Armenians... Although I've met good examples of such Armenians here in North America, I haven't met anyone from Artsakh, but I wonder what he would have to say about them, the golden core as you call them.

I still don't understand why you care for his comments? It's obvious what he would more-or-less say. You don't even need to ask him, just read his endless rants...

[jgk3]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Armenian, I could not have said better myself. The "Ara types" were busy drinking coffee in some Istabul coffee house, debating about the color "blue", and boasting how they are the "paper pushers" of the Ottoman Empire, while the vast majoirty of Armenians were being persecuted. The reason the Ottoman Empire was so succesful is because of these degenerate "intellectuals", they built the empire for the Turks and Turks rewarded them with death.

My great grandfather was a Dadian, had wealthy estates in Istanbul and contributed a lot to the Armenian community there. His father or grandfather would write letters to the Armenian revolutionaries before the genocides were about to start, trying to warn them not to stand up to the Turks at that critical time. Yes, he may have been a paper pusher but he knew that this might've been the end of the line for Armenians in Turkey, and was deeply scared. Perhaps he knew something about the Young Turks that the Armenians in Anatolia weren't expecting? Or perhaps he was just fearful of jeopardizing all that his family/dynasty accomplished under the Turks...

In the end, they did lose it all, but the Armenians in Istanbul did not suffer death, just social stigma and everything they ever accomplished for Armenians there fell back into the hands of the Turks. A misplaced trust? Were the days of traditional Ottoman treatment of Armenians so genuinely good that they hoped it would continue even when the empire was in dramatic decline, struggling to achieve a single victory for itself?

[jgk3]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Turkish and xxxish forums? I'd like to see how people respond to his posts on those.

You make a good argument concerning our revolutionary and independance movements seeing people like Ara as obstacles. Although what he said about our revolutionaries of the past, misplacing our trust in European powers, sounds like a logical assertion to me. Beyond that however, I do find his words are contradictory to the fighting resilience I see in many Armenians... Although I've met good examples of such Armenians here in North America, I haven't met anyone from Artsakh, but I wonder what he would have to say about them, the golden core as you call them.

[Virgil]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Listen, just go to his thread and read his endless crap. It's all self-hate, ego trips and disgruntlement. Like I said, he is good in constructing thoughts into words, however, he has no intellectual depth nor does he understand international politics or Armenian history. His "tone" is not only pessimistic it's also depressing, ugly, destructive and annihilative. He is not a 'critic,' he is simply a self-hating angry individual out to exert revenge on Armenian nationalists for not realizing his literary potential. Regarding the two genocide: the individual 'type' that Ara represents was/are essentially responsible for both tragedies our people have faced and are facing today. Had is not been for complacent, Ottomanized, self centered, and pacifist Armenians such as him - we would have been better able to resist the Turks. Don't forget that the Armenian independence movement within the Ottoman Armenian population at the time was a tiny minority, most Armenians were happy to remain obedient Ottomans. One of biggest obstacle Armenian revolutionaries' at the time faced was the lack of support within the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire. Today the Ara types in our society still blame the Armenian revolutionaries for the Armenian Genocide, specifically the ARF. Nevertheless, had it been for the Ara types we as a nation today would have been totally Turkified today. Or, at best, we would have been Christian Turks. And in the post-Genocide diaspora, it is precisely his type that is leading us proudly and unwaveringly into assimilation and eventual demise. Therefore, this person in question has no value to us what-so-ever. And since he posts his self-hating crap within Turkish and Jewish forums he is a liability and an embarrassment for us all.

Armenian, I could not have said better myself. The "Ara types" were busy drinking coffee in some Istabul coffee house, debating about the color "blue", and boasting how they are the "paper pushers" of the Ottoman Empire, while the vast majoirty of Armenians were being persecuted. The reason the Ottoman Empire was so succesful is because of these degenerate "intellectuals", they built the empire for the Turks and Turks rewarded them with death.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

He does make logical statements concerning Armenians too though, reminding us every now and then that we experienced two genocides, one from Turks and the other from assimilation of the diaspora. His tone is pessimistic though, as this same statement can be used to remind the diaspora of what they've truly become, and motivate at least some of them to think about where they're going.

Listen, just go to his thread and read his endless crap. It's all self-hate, ego trips and disgruntlement. Like I said, he is good in constructing thoughts into words, however, he has no intellectual depth nor does he understand international politics or Armenian history. His "tone" is not only pessimistic it's also depressing, ugly, destructive and annihilative. He is not a 'critic,' he is simply a self-hating angry individual out to exert revenge on Armenian nationalists for not realizing his literary potential. Regarding the two genocide: the individual 'type' that Ara represents was/are essentially responsible for both tragedies our people have faced and are facing today. Had is not been for complacent, Ottomanized, self centered, and pacifist Armenians such as him - we would have been better able to resist the Turks. Don't forget that the Armenian independence movement within the Ottoman Armenian population at the time was a tiny minority, most Armenians were happy to remain obedient Ottomans. One of biggest obstacle Armenian revolutionaries' at the time faced was the lack of support within the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire. Today the Ara types in our society still blame the Armenian revolutionaries for the Armenian Genocide, specifically the ARF. Nevertheless, had it been for the Ara types we as a nation today would have been totally Turkified today. Or, at best, we would have been Christian Turks. And in the post-Genocide diaspora, it is precisely his type that is leading us proudly and unwaveringly into assimilation and eventual demise. Therefore, this person in question has no value to us what-so-ever. And since he posts his self-hating crap within Turkish and Jewish forums he is a liability and an embarrassment for us all.

[jgk3]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

yep, he doesn't venture outside his thread. Oh well, I hope he had a nice celebration at home.

I think you're right about his ideology being more applicable to large nations. He speaks about how he used to be a narrow-minded pro-Armenian writer and although his first hand experience in dealing with or listening to many of our bigots, charlatans and commissars of the past can be good to hear from time to time, I don't see how this has to reflect Armenian nationalism in itself, from what I've witnessed of it at least.

He does make logical statements concerning Armenians too though, reminding us every now and then that we experienced two genocides, one from Turks and the other from assimilation of the diaspora. His tone is pessimistic though, as this same statement can be used to remind the diaspora of what they've truly become, and motivate at least some of them to think about where they're going.

[Armenian]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

He tries to apply what he's learned in his life, and in literature to the subject of Armenians and their unique circumstances. Of course, it's hard for him to sound convincing towards Armenians especially as his take on history and politics are very controversial to many Armenians. But somewhere in there, he is worth listening to because of his experience and knowledge of literature from various nations and epochs. Still, in the end, it's up to the reader to decide whether or not the comparisons he uses are sufficiently applicable to Armenian issues.

I admit that he is good in constructing thoughts - but that's about it. The level of his understanding of Armenian history and geopolitics in general is that of an adolescent. Quote any statement of his regarding history and/or politics and I will tear it apart word for word. He is simply a disgruntled individual with a massive ego and a lot of self hate. His ideological rhetoric, or the lack of, is more applicable to large nations, big powers, than to us Armenians. That is why I said I would have respected him had he been an American. Men such as him are a detriment to our well being as a nation. Such types of men are/were responsible for the worst pages in our modern history.

Anyway, I guess we are having a birthday party without the birthday boy...