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God

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  • #51
    Re: God

    Originally posted by Stark Evade View Post
    You're not grasping that fact that it doesn't matter what its limitations are.
    Why doesn't it matter? This is just an easy way for you to escape the limitations of the human mind.

    I said it is not based on the senses of a single individual. That's why you have peer review. You can still argue that even that is somehow potentially fallible but again that doesn't matter because it is the best way to gather knowledge and there for it is our logical responsibility to adhere to the principles.
    Nevertheless, you cannot show with absolute certainty that logic or reason is the best way to comprehend the universe. At best using logic and reason to comprehend the universe is a subjective choice.

    I see where you want to take this. You're essentially arbitrarily categorizing things as being either in the realm science or in the realm of philosophy opening up the possibility of relegating religious dogma to philosophy and therefore not in the reach of science. That becomes a game of semantics and word manipulation.
    What are you talking about? I am not "arbitrarily categorizing" - I am saying that God and philosophy in general are unfalsifiable. All philosophical ideas are unfalsifiable - this does not mean that they are untrue. Certainly you are not a nihilist?

    I'll first repeat that even philosophy needs to be logical and that a fallacious argument, philosophically is utterly useless. Further, it is inescapable that believing in a god as a cause is an attempt to make conclusions about the physical nature of the universe and therefore subject to scientific scrutiny.
    Philosophy needs to be logical? By what standard of value? You are using your own value set and applying it to what you think philosophy should be. Western philosophy generally accepts this fact (at least in the past it has) but Eastern philosophy does not necessarily agree with this. Does this render Eastern philosophy obsolete or "wrong"? Not necessarily.

    As Anonymouse so aptly and concisely explained, the issue of God is outside the realm of science. Both atheism and theism are taken on faith.

    Like I've said, the fallibility is a non-issue.
    You've said it, but have yet to explain it.

    Some physical laws "break down" in black holes. And appear to "break down" in quantum physics. This is no argument. I don't see the point. All you are saying is that science does not know everything and that is something the scientific community already accepts. It is a principle in science. And it has nothing to do with this debate. It is a red herring.
    It is an argument to consider when someone, such as yourself, comes along and upholds the virtues of logic and reason as the only way to percieve the universe. The principles of logic are not, and cannot be axioms. I am assuming you are familiar with Godel.

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    • #52
      Re: God

      Originally posted by Stark Evade View Post
      I don't need to disprove the existence of a god. It is the theist that must provide the proof for a god and it is impossible for him to do so because it is not a testable hypothesis. At this point elementary logic would conclude that belief in a god is illogical because there is no epistemological reason to believe it. Period.
      but isn't logic illogical? like i said according to logic something had to have come before you, but in order for everything to start, that means something must have come before everything and from nothing and just always existed, i know that sound illogical, but how else can you logically explain something coming out of nothingness? However this statement does not prove the existence of the Abrahamic God or any other god(s) of any religion, because all of them have major contradictions and fallacies. Everyone should just take the positive rules that each religion have in common and live by those and scrap all the other ones.

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      • #53
        Re: God

        Originally posted by ara87 View Post
        but isn't logic illogical?
        No.

        like i said according to logic something had to have come before you, but in order for everything to start, that means something must have come before everything and from nothing and just always existed, i know that sound illogical, but how else can you logically explain something coming out of nothingness?
        I still believe you need to study refutations of the "first cause argument" to be clear about why this is not a valid argument.

        And you must also understand that nobody here, me included, has the knowledge to understand the issues theoretical physicist deal with regarding the beginning of the universe. But I can say that you are not only over-simplifying but that you are making conclusions about the issue without all of the facts.

        However this statement does not prove the existence of the Abrahamic God or any other god(s) of any religion, because all of them have major contradictions and fallacies. Everyone should just take the positive rules that each religion have in common and live by those and scrap all the other ones.
        People are generally compelled to be moral because of evolution. Because we evolved in a way that made the foundations of society guarantee our fitness to survive. The fact that you can go to a religion, even your own, and select the passages that you feel are most valid shows a discrimination that is inherent in man and unrelated to religious teaching.

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        • #54
          Re: God

          Originally posted by yerazhishda View Post
          Why doesn't it matter? This is just an easy way for you to escape the limitations of the human mind.



          Nevertheless, you cannot show with absolute certainty that logic or reason is the best way to comprehend the universe. At best using logic and reason to comprehend the universe is a subjective choice.



          What are you talking about? I am not "arbitrarily categorizing" - I am saying that God and philosophy in general are unfalsifiable. All philosophical ideas are unfalsifiable - this does not mean that they are untrue. Certainly you are not a nihilist?



          Philosophy needs to be logical? By what standard of value? You are using your own value set and applying it to what you think philosophy should be. Western philosophy generally accepts this fact (at least in the past it has) but Eastern philosophy does not necessarily agree with this. Does this render Eastern philosophy obsolete or "wrong"? Not necessarily.

          As Anonymouse so aptly and concisely explained, the issue of God is outside the realm of science. Both atheism and theism are taken on faith.



          You've said it, but have yet to explain it.



          It is an argument to consider when someone, such as yourself, comes along and upholds the virtues of logic and reason as the only way to percieve the universe. The principles of logic are not, and cannot be axioms. I am assuming you are familiar with Godel.
          I don't want to keep repeating myself. I'm done. I never commented with the expectation that people would change their minds. It is only that I feel compelled to represent my opinion when the issue of religion is brought up... to let people know that not everyone agrees. And for that reason I am ending this debate because I was never really interested in debating the same old arguments all over again. See you.

          Comment

          • #55
            Re: God

            Originally posted by Stark Evade View Post
            I don't want to keep repeating myself. I'm done. I never commented with the expectation that people would change their minds. It is only that I feel compelled to represent my opinion when the issue of religion is brought up... to let people know that not everyone agrees. And for that reason I am ending this debate because I was never really interested in debating the same old arguments all over again. See you.
            Suit yourself. Just get off your high horse in the process.

            Cheers.

            Comment

            • #56
              Re: God

              I belong on a high horse. Salut.

              Comment

              • #57
                Re: God

                He not only couldn't answer me, but he couldn't debate you either yeraz.
                For the first time in more than 600 years, Armenia is free and independent, and we are therefore obligated
                to place our national interests ahead of our personal gains or aspirations.



                http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.html

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                • #58
                  Re: God

                  I think he explained his stance well enough. I actually want to read some of authors he mentioned now.

                  Comment

                  • #59
                    Re: God

                    Originally posted by Dice View Post
                    personally i think it's better to have a belief in god(this can mean that you believe we are all god in reality which i do)

                    but I have studied alot of western philosophy(paticularily Nietzsche) and compared it with Buddhist or Christian beliefs and found that buddhism/orthodox christianity give people more initiative to go on living and treat people with respect.

                    The problem with Nietzsche etc is one views the world as a constant power struggle, and is subsequently brought to the assumption that the only real thing in life that has meaning is POWER and that you have to assert your power of other people/dominate to get that fix and feel good. This has plagued western thought and thrown out basic morals of human kindness etc. Everywhere you look in the west people only care about climbing up the social ladder and being more rich and powerful. All the dictators round the globe(Bush a good example), they're pretty much on par with criminals or pimps(whose only motivation is to get as many girls/guys psychologically under their control and dependancy..not even sleeping with any of the girls cos in their mind that would mean they would loose a degree of power over them).

                    So you can either play that game or realize that we are all human and underneath that ego based facade spurred by our own insecurities, we can treat eachother like equals and with compassion. The ego makes us think that we are seperate from everything and that the world owes us a living and we can only find our place by proving it to people. If we drop the ego, we find we already have an identity and we were born with it...we don't need people's opinions or thoughts to tell us who we are...we are perfect from the start.

                    We are all god we just have to unlock our true essence.
                    Only when we love ourselves can we love others.



                    Will be interested to see some constrating views to this and if anyone agrees or not.
                    thanks
                    phil
                    Explain to me one thing. We are all God give me an example....because in my book theres only one God, the beginning of the earth & he is awesome, so yes having a belief in God & living for him is an awesome & wonderful thing.
                    Positive vibes, positive taught

                    Comment

                    • #60
                      Re: God

                      Originally posted by Stark Evade View Post
                      I don't need to disprove the existence of a god. It is the theist that must provide the proof for a god and it is impossible for him to do so because it is not a testable hypothesis. At this point elementary logic would conclude that belief in a god is illogical because there is no epistemological reason to believe it. Period.
                      Science deals with the natural world and is limited to the present, temporal, physical world. You cannot use a standard that is used for the physical world that revolves around our senses to prove or disprove something that is beyond it.

                      I am not arguing for God. I am arguing at the illogical approach you are taking, which is more about ideology than any philosophical consistency or fallacy-free reasoning.

                      It remains what you and the God crowd have are still beliefs. You can sit here and shout and demean and try to present your "infallible" logic, but all you have is still an opinion. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it goes.
                      Achkerov kute.

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