Atheism and being Armenian

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade. Gathering family and friends for baptism in celebration of their new born isn't a facade. Having a place for the community to gather and mourn for the loss of one of its members isn't a facade. Armenians are secular in a sense but many of these traditions are part of our culture and unites the community. If there are two things Armenians love, it's feasting and celebration. How do you propose replacing these traditions that are intricate parts of society? What do you mean by more humanist? Armenian culture is as humane as humanity can get.

I was hoping ArmSurvival would have responded since at least we had some meaningful conversation going. But in the meantime, I may as well correct inaccurate readings of my posts, which is what I seem to spend most of my time doing. It is actually quite exhausting, and I can't really believe that I'm this difficult to understand.

I'm ignoring the reference to the royal wedding, as I have NO idea how that relates to Armenians or atheism. As for every other example you gave, I absolutely in no way suggested that celebrations, family gatherings or a love of community was a facade. I was responding to what ArmSurvival said about how the church is more or less just an institution that facilitates all those things... whether or not people actually believe in the teachings of the church. Dropping the facade, in the context of what I was saying, was in relation to Armenians who don't really believe in the church's message possibly, eventually, leaving that institution behind and having celebrations, family gatherings, love of culture, etc., for secular and simply humanist reasons without all the religious baggage. I thought this was pretty clear in my response.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I was hoping ArmSurvival would have responded since at least we had some meaningful conversation going. But in the meantime, I may as well correct inaccurate readings of my posts, which is what I seem to spend most of my time doing. It is actually quite exhausting, and I can't really believe that I'm this difficult to understand.

I'm ignoring the reference to the royal wedding, as I have NO idea how that relates to Armenians or atheism. As for every other example you gave, I absolutely in no way suggested that celebrations, family gatherings or a love of community was a facade. I was responding to what ArmSurvival said about how the church is more or less just an institution that facilitates all those things... whether or not people actually believe in the teachings of the church. Dropping the facade, in the context of what I was saying, was in relation to Armenians who don't really believe in the church's message possibly, eventually, leaving that institution behind and having celebrations, family gatherings, love of culture, etc., for secular and simply humanist reasons without all the religious baggage. I thought this was pretty clear in my response.

What reference to the royal wedding? Have you ever been to an Armenian wedding? I wrote that prior to the media coverage on the royal wedding (which in my mind was no doubt a lot of political mumbo jumbo on part of the British). Regardless, an Armenian ceremony puts the royal wedding to shame in terms of meaning and symbolism as the bride and groom are crowned. I'm just wondering, are people incapable of blocking out the "religious baggage" that they don't believe in? You're asking for the majority to cater to the minority. How do you suppose Armenians leave all these institutions behind? You are aware that if I were to cut and paste the names of all the Armenian churches in the world, it would fill up dozens of pages right? I can pretty much be traveling to any major city in the world and find an Armenian church/community. Even if you aren't religious, the shear magnificence and architecture of many of our churches is reason enough to proud that the Armenian church is something that is associated with our people.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade.

I apologize, it was late and since the royal wedding had just happened I thought the above line was in reference to that. Now I see what you mean. Yea, I always felt that particular part of the wedding ceremony was kind of strange.

I've gone over this countless times now, the religious baggage is not benign. it does have an effect on enough people that I feel it is causing harm and slowing progress. We need to jettison that in favor of something that doesn't do that.

You seem to think that being an atheist means you suddenly don't appreciate grand architecture or art. On the contrary I think devotional art is some of the most beautiful art there is, and architecturally I think cathedrals are often the most beautiful buildings. Probably the most amazing place I've ever stood inside was the Chartres cathedral in France. But appreciating these places, and indeed wanting to preserve them, has everything to do with a love of culture and wanting to respect their context in history, and nothing to do with being religious. When I say I would, ideally, want Armenians (and everyone else) to move away from religion, that does not include getting into bulldozers and destroying churches. That much should be clear.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I apologize, it was late and since the royal wedding had just happened I thought the above line was in reference to that. Now I see what you mean. Yea, I always felt that particular part of the wedding ceremony was kind of strange.

It's not so strange if you consider that our nobility has interesting roots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_nobility

One thing to note:

The aristocratic tradition in Armenia suffered another blow during the Bolshevik regime, when the nobility was dissolved as a social class and the noblemen underwent systematic oppression. Many representatives of the Armenian aristocracy were repressed, sentenced to prisons and work camps, or simply executed. Those who survived against all odds were forced to hide their aristocratic origins by changing family names and obliterating their family histories. Only a very few managed to preserve their family traditions by leaving the Communist regime and moving to other countries.

I've gone over this countless times now, the religious baggage is not benign. it does have an effect on enough people that I feel it is causing harm and slowing progress. We need to jettison that in favor of something that doesn't do that.

So you feel that either the religious have to become not religious or vice versa and there simply can't be a secular America. I believe that was the exact conditions that existed prior to the Bolshevik take over of Russia.

You seem to think that being an atheist means you suddenly don't appreciate grand architecture or art. On the contrary I think devotional art is some of the most beautiful art there is, and architecturally I think cathedrals are often the most beautiful buildings. Probably the most amazing place I've ever stood inside was the Chartres cathedral in France. But appreciating these places, and indeed wanting to preserve them, has everything to do with a love of culture and wanting to respect their context in history, and nothing to do with being religious. When I say I would, ideally, want Armenians (and everyone else) to move away from religion, that does not include getting into bulldozers and destroying churches. That much should be clear.

I also seem to think that Atheism among Armenians began with the Bolshevik regime and prior to that, Armenians were very well connected to their roots (or rather, their historical family lineage)

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think you're confusing what I'd like to see as a natural social change with something I would impose. I would never "impose" atheism on anyone... that's rather pointless. I'm not talking about policies or regimes, I'm talking about wanting people themselves to grow out of a need for wish-thinking and a belief in the supernatural.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think you're confusing what I'd like to see as a natural social change with something I would impose. I would never "impose" atheism on anyone... that's rather pointless. I'm not talking about policies or regimes, I'm talking about wanting people themselves to grow out of a need for wish-thinking and a belief in the supernatural.

So you're referring to genies? That's my concept of wish-thinking, lol. Wish-thinking isn't necessarily a product of belief in the supernatural, it's a product of denying reality.

I'll take your suggestion a step further and list some things that make children grow into believing in the supernatural:

Super Heroes
Comic Books
Science Fiction
Santa Claus (this guy does make wish-thinking come true until the child realizes he/she has been lied to)
Tooth Fairy

Now, how many of the above were promoted by Armenian parents or grandparents? These are Western creations. So let's look for things that are promoted by Armenians that you don't believe should exist.

For example, I had to play along with the other kids in school because I knew there was no Santa... my parents didn't feed me B.S.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

So you're referring to genies? That's my concept of wish-thinking, lol. Wish-thinking isn't necessarily a product of belief in the supernatural, it's a product of denying reality.

I'll take your suggestion a step further and list some things that make children grow into believing in the supernatural:

Super Heroes
Comic Books
Science Fiction
Santa Claus (this guy does make wish-thinking come true until the child realizes he/she has been lied to)
Tooth Fairy

Now, how many of the above were promoted by Armenian parents or grandparents? These are Western creations. So let's look for things that are promoted by Armenians that you don't believe should exist.

For example, I had to play along with the other kids in school because I knew there was no Santa... my parents didn't feed me B.S.

Obviously I was not referring to genies. Obviously no one believes in superheroes or science fiction. And now you're talking about Armenian parents and grandparents, when what I've been talking about is the church this whole time. Every time I correct some misapprehension of my point, there crops up just another misapprehension. I'm not even having a conversation anymore, I just have to keep clarifying already clear statements for people who are either incapable of understanding my, I'd like to think, rather simple points, or who have no interest in having an actual conversation or debate and just throw out silly comments to goad me on. Either way, it's all become rather boring and not a very good use of my time. I'll leave you all to it.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Obviously I was not referring to genies. Obviously no one believes in superheroes or science fiction. And now you're talking about Armenian parents and grandparents, when what I've been talking about is the church this whole time. Every time I correct some misapprehension of my point, there crops up just another misapprehension. I'm not even having a conversation anymore, I just have to keep clarifying already clear statements for people who are either incapable of understanding my, I'd like to think, rather simple points, or who have no interest in having an actual conversation or debate and just throw out silly comments to goad me on. Either way, it's all become rather boring and not a very good use of my time. I'll leave you all to it.

That's what I thought, another Turk trolling the forums. Good day.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

That's what I thought, another Turk trolling the forums. Good day.

Sarcasm again instead of "meanness" again? He must be a trolling turk (clearly an insult, no?), it can't be that its frustrating to go in pointless circles.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Sarcasm again instead of "meanness" again? He must be a trolling turk (clearly an insult, no?), it can't be that its frustrating to go in pointless circles.

Can you please, please, please tell me why any Armenian in their right mind would come here just to attack the Armenian church? If Armenians don't belong to a church, nobody forces them to go. If these are Armenians posting here, is Glendale really this clueless?