Atheism and being Armenian

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

There are many historical texts and I'm definite this was common knowledge up until the years of the Genocide.

"It is said by ancient Armenian historians that the Armenians were originally worshippers of the One True God, but they, like all other nations, deserted Him and took up with various religions. Sun-worship was one of these; Zoroastrianism also had its turn; in due course, the Greeks introduced their own deities; even India succeeded in making its influence felt. Strabo has it that the Armenians, during the period of the Arsacid dynasty, were of the same religion as the Parthians. It appears that the Armenians fused together Zoroastrianism and the polytheism of Greece and other nations, thus combining eastern and western religion. One result of this fusion was that though the Zoroastrians made no visible representation of their God, the temples of Armenia were full of images, brought from Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and Greece."

Armenian Legends and Poems [1916] at sacred-texts.com

There are problems with the reliability of history of the subject by the subject, sometimes. Can we be sure something like that wasn't promulgated to help create a disconnect with the past pagan ways? It wouldn't be the first time Christianity employed those sorts of tactics to encourage converts to let go of the past. That something was common knowledge, does not necessarily make it true. E.g., Americans think the interaction between the Pilgrims and Natives looked like the crap Thanksgiving story they're fed in grade school; doesn't make it so.

Not only Armenians but Russians as well were forced to give up their Orthodoxy as Churches were destroyed and priests were killed. For about 1,600 years until the Armenian Genocide, Christianity played a very important role in our identity. The Armenian identity. Our every day lives were part of it.

For the past 100 years and after the fall of the Soviet Union, many Armenians of Armenia became Atheists because of Soviet doctrine. Still, I believe that our religion was still stronger than the Soviet Union's propaganda so many Armenians actually kept their faith, although in secret. The Armenians of the diaspora continued their faith in Christianity as normal since the countries they moved to for the most part encouraged, rather than discouraged religion.

This is why the average diaspora Armenian tends to be more religious than the average Armenian from Armenia.

I'll get to the rest later.

What documentation is there of "many Armenians of Armenia [becoming] Atheists because of Soviet doctrine"? Admittedly, I do not know a lot about this time period. If there are scholarly sources you can point me to, I would greatly appreciate it.

But does the average diasporan Armenian tend to be more religious? Has there been a survey of various Armenians around the world? I don't know that we can just assume this is true then use it to bolster the argument by saying it's consistent.

I just don't think "we've been X a really long time" is a good enough reason to continue that way. "That's how we've always done it" isn't a good argument in my opinion.

Will a decrease in religiosity spell the end of Armenian identity? I don't know why we should assume it does. We certainly have plenty of anecdotes to the contrary, so at the very least we can say it doesn't invariability lead to that.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

There are problems with the reliability of history of the subject by the subject, sometimes. Can we be sure something like that wasn't promulgated to help create a disconnect with the past pagan ways?

"Armenian Legends and Poems" is not (and never was meant to be) an academic book. It was bought by those who already knew the subject, and bought as a bit of expensive fluff for show (the 1910s equivalent of a "coffee-table book").

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Not only Armenians but Russians as well were forced to give up their Orthodoxy as Churches were destroyed and priests were killed. For about 1,600 years until the Armenian Genocide, Christianity played a very important role in our identity. The Armenian identity. Our every day lives were part of it.

For the past 100 years and after the fall of the Soviet Union, many Armenians of Armenia became Atheists because of Soviet doctrine. Still, I believe that our religion was still stronger than the Soviet Union's propaganda so many Armenians actually kept their faith, although in secret.

In the above, if you were to replace "Christianity" with "Pagan" and "churches" with "temples", and then replace "Soviet doctrine" with "Christianity" then you will be writing about what happened to the population of Armenia in the 4th century AD.

Although both conversions were imposed from above, unlike during the imposition of Christian doctrine, considerably less priests were killed and only a handful of religious shrines were actually demolished during the imposition of Soviet doctrine.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

"Armenian Legends and Poems" is not (and never was meant to be) an academic book. It was bought by those who already knew the subject, and bought as a bit of expensive fluff for show (the 1910s equivalent of a "coffee-table book").

Do you have any historical evidence of who the book was bought by? Bell the Cat is really a 110 year old Armenian in cat's clothing. As I stated "it was common knowledge" as in Armenians were well educated in their own history, religious and otherwise so it's obvious that the book represented people that knew the subject (Armenians)

The book is online and can be found here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/armeni...ge/n7/mode/2up

In the above, if you were to replace "Christianity" with "Pagan" and "churches" with "temples", and then replace "Soviet doctrine" with "Christianity" then you will be writing about what happened to the population of Armenia in the 4th century AD.

Although both conversions were imposed from above, unlike during the imposition of Christian doctrine, considerably less priests were killed and only a handful of religious shrines were actually demolished during the imposition of Soviet doctrine.

The difference being the population of Armenia was mobile traveling across the Anatolian plains in the 4th century AD while the Soviets created a prison for Armenians and force fed their doctrine.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

In the above, if you were to replace "Christianity" with "Pagan" and "churches" with "temples", and then replace "Soviet doctrine" with "Christianity" then you will be writing about what happened to the population of Armenia in the 4th century AD.

Although both conversions were imposed from above, unlike during the imposition of Christian doctrine, considerably less priests were killed and only a handful of religious shrines were actually demolished during the imposition of Soviet doctrine.

Yes, good point.

Do you have any historical evidence of who the book was bought by? Bell the Cat is really a 110 year old Armenian in cat's clothing.

I think we can agree that from the title at least, it doesn't present itself as a historical source. This is part of the problem of trying to deduce fact and fiction from legends and oral history.

The difference being the population of Armenia was mobile traveling across the Anatolian plains in the 4th century AD while the Soviets created a prison for Armenians and force fed their doctrine.

I think it's hard to draw a truly meaningful distinction.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Yes, good point.

It's a sh!tty point. It's like replacing "Star Search" with "American Idol".

I think we can agree that from the title at least, it doesn't present itself as a historical source. This is part of the problem of trying to deduce fact and fiction from legends and oral history.

So when the victors of WWI write your history, you as an Armenian should believe their account of events right? Because it's academic and you're just a dumb Armenian.

I think it's hard to draw a truly meaningful distinction.

It's pretty easy to draw a truly meaningful distinction. When Armenians freed themselves (temporarily) from the Soviet rule, they returned back to Christianity.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

So 23 pages in, where has this conversation led to? Any resolution?

My grandfather for example was a hard-working man who worked like a good communist from a early age in the fields picking greens (very strenuous job!) to working in factories, whose father was a dedicated Communist. His father's staunch communism rubbed off on him, as even today when you ask him about religion, he calls it off as a big lie and almost like a conspiracy. Though, he's not one of those people that has allergies regarding anything with religion, he will still visit Church when its needed (ceremonies) and will respect the Church, even though he necessarily won't believe in it. So you will find atheism or just simply irreligious mindset among the Armenian populace, especially ones who grew up in Soviet Armenia, however, you will not find very often an arrogance or disrespect to the Church establishment, most of those feelings will be kept within.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

So 23 pages in, where has this conversation led to? Any resolution?

My grandfather for example was a hard-working man who worked like a good communist from a early age in the fields picking greens (very strenuous job!) to working in factories, whose father was a dedicated Communist. His father's staunch communism rubbed off on him, as even today when you ask him about religion, he calls it off as a big lie and almost like a conspiracy. Though, he's not one of those people that has allergies regarding anything with religion, he will still visit Church when its needed (ceremonies) and will respect the Church, even though he necessarily won't believe in it. So you will find atheism or just simply irreligious mindset among the Armenian populace, especially ones who grew up in Soviet Armenia, however, you will not find very often an arrogance or disrespect to the Church establishment, most of those feelings will be kept within.

What do you mean by arrogance or disrespect for the church? Is criticism the same as disrespect? I don't even know how one can have arrogance for anything. Arrogant is a quality of the person; it's something you are.

I'm not sure what you're saying... Is it that you think it's okay not to believe so long as you're respectful (and not arrogant? I guess you'll explain this one) of the Church? That's what it sounded like to me.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

What do you mean by arrogance or disrespect for the church? Is criticism the same as disrespect? I don't even know how one can have arrogance for anything. Arrogant is a quality of the person; it's something you are.

I'm not sure what you're saying... Is it that you think it's okay not to believe so long as you're respectful (and not arrogant? I guess you'll explain this one) of the Church? That's what it sounded like to me.

I'm saying arrogance against believers, attacking or demeaning people who unlike them are religious and have beliefs. More to that, it's unacceptable for them to do the same to the Armenian Church, which is an important part of the Armenian nation. They should keep their beliefs to themselves and not use to attack people or demean an important element of the nation.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I'm saying arrogance against believers, attacking or demeaning people who unlike them are religious and have beliefs. More to that, it's unacceptable for them to do the same to the Armenian Church, which is an important part of the Armenian nation. They should keep their beliefs to themselves and not use to attack people or demean an important element of the nation.

I think if you asked believers if they feel superior in some way to non-believers, you'd get about the same proportions answering in the affirmative as if you did the reverse. This hasn't been done though, so rather than claim that one side tends to do this to the other, perhaps we can acknowledge that it seems this way to the opposite side.

See, the problem is that there's not agreement about what's demeaning. People tend to be offended by any criticism. Being critical of the church isn't necessarily disrespectful. Also, why should the church enjoy that position of privilege to be above any scrutiny?
Should we respect all religions or only the one that our people tend to subscribe to? Is it okay to "demean" or be critical of the church of scientology, by comparison? For less odd comparison, what about Islam? Should that be protected too or is it just that we tend to want to protect our religious organizations only?