How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Yes Mos we know that chrystianity cannot be blamed for anything bad that was done because of it nor by it directly since everyone knows -the devile did those bad things. How long can humanity buy this good cop/bad cop bs for? One of the biggest failings of the humanity is the inability to heed the lessons of the past and not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. Be it religion, racism, sexism..people learn right from wrong the hard way but then they forget and have to learn it all over again the hard way.

We have free will. Christianity (unlike the other main religions) is generous in the free will it gives us. It is with that free will you should strive to live by the principles that Jesus professes. When you do bad things and use Christianity to justify that's your problem, because the essence of Jesus's message is not hate or violence, but love, charity and forgiveness.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

We have free will. Christianity (unlike the other main religions) is generous in the free will it gives us. It is with that free will you should strive to live by the principles that Jesus professes. When you do bad things and use Christianity to justify that's your problem, because the essence of Jesus's message is not hate or violence, but love, charity and forgiveness.

That sounds great, but unfortunately, it's a fairy tale. There's no hate or violence? What Bible are you reading? And besides, assuming even that Jesus actually existed, nothing was written within his lifetime about him. The first mentions are some 60 years later. Further, even the oldest existing copies of the bible are just that copies and each one is different. From differences in the copies that exist, we *know* its contents have been influenced, changed, etc. How can we consider it to be authoritative?

So god gave us free will, but we are not permitted to believe anything we want. You must choose Jesus or eternal damnation. God is supposed to know our thoughts, have created us to THINK, but we're not supposed to think. We're supposed to follow the doctrine without questioning it. God is supposed to love us and have given us free will, but will throw us in hell to burn for eternity if we exercise that free will and choose a different religion or no religion? Yet, the bible says our names are written in the book of life before birth. This means that before our birth, god knows if we will be going to hell... Where's the choice? He lets people be born and live only to later send them to hell after giving them some illusion of free will?

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Free will cannot exist in any religion. People who are born into a society that preaches a religion or religions are taught to follow this/these religiion/religions from the getgo and they never see a unbiased argument for or against religion. The free will you speak of in chrystianity is an illusion much like democracy is an illusion in USA.

We have free will. Christianity (unlike the other main religions) is generous in the free will it gives us. It is with that free will you should strive to live by the principles that Jesus professes. When you do bad things and use Christianity to justify that's your problem, because the essence of Jesus's message is not hate or violence, but love, charity and forgiveness.

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

So god gave us free will, but we are not permitted to believe anything we want. You must choose Jesus or eternal damnation. God is supposed to know our thoughts, have created us to THINK, but we're not supposed to think. We're supposed to follow the doctrine without questioning it. God is supposed to love us and have given us free will, but will throw us in hell to burn for eternity if we exercise that free will and choose a different religion or no religion? Yet, the bible says our names are written in the book of life before birth. This means that before our birth, god knows if we will be going to hell... Where's the choice? He lets people be born and live only to later send them to hell after giving them some illusion of free will?

You are not supposed to do anything. You can do what you want. The choice is yours and you deal with the consequences of your choice. You always have the chance of course for salvation, to repent your sins and wrong-doings, to ask for forgiveness, to better you life. God gives us this chance.

I recommend you read this:

God created the world because He is love. He wanted to share His love with people. Therefore He created us to be holy, as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16). God never intended for people to sin. The fact that man was disobedient and sinned against God is a distortion of the original plan. The original aim was for man to have a relationship with the Creator. Now, we know that God is love and that He is righteous and that all other virtues are combined in His being. Therefore His plan to create the world was pure as well. He loves the beings He created. If He had decided that everything should happen according to his will, the fulfilment of His plan for a world full of love and peace would remain unchanged even today. Since He respects the will of people, sin could come into the world through their decision.The teaching of predestination implies, in fact, that God planned in advance for men to sin and wants the majority of people to go to hell. This would make God the author of sin. Before they are even born it has already been decided that the majority of people will never have the chance to be saved (according to Calvin).

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? […] Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live. (Ezekiel 18:23,31-32, ESV)

In the Bible people are very often called to “Repent!” This presupposes that it is possible to respond to this call! When Jesus calls: “Repent!” he does not order, but he encourages, asks, urges, implores. It is not a humiliation for the Almighty God to ask us, because he is perfectly humble: “We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:20, ESV).

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Free will cannot exist in any religion. People who are born into a society that preaches a religion or religions are taught to follow this/these religiion/religions from the getgo and they never see a unbiased argument for or against religion. The free will you speak of in chrystianity is an illusion much like democracy is an illusion in USA.

No you still have free will. Just because at your youth you might be taught about your religion doesn't take your free will away. You can still choose later on not to believe or do what you want.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

How do you come to the conclusion that when people can choose that they choose to believe? Reality shows a very different picture; look at Western Europe where people have the choice and most are starting to chose not to believe in god and all the superstition that it is surrounded with.

Are they really choosing or is the media doing such a good job of making fun of Christianity to the point where it's "shameful" or not "cool" at a young age to think in Godly terms. It's a similar picture across the world, big cities seem to have little to do with church and family while the outskirts where there is large land/property/farming, etc. hold onto their heritage, ideals, values, etc. With God and Christianity comes self governance, self rule and ownership. Having property and land yields to freedom. Economic freedom is key to personal freedom and political freedom.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

You are not supposed to do anything. You can do what you want. The choice is yours and you deal with the consequences of your choice. You always have the chance of course for salvation, to repent your sins and wrong-doings, to ask for forgiveness, to better you life. God gives us this chance.

So, I can put a gun to your head and tell you that I'm giving you a choice. You can say "Siggie is awesome and I worship her!" or I can blow your brains out. That's totally a "choice", right? "The choice is yours and you deal with the consequences of your choice."

I recommend you read this:

First of all, why should I read that and consider it authoritative in the least? You don't even give any source information whatsoever. What makes the interpretation you share any more valid than any other interpretation of the bible (e.g. Westboro Baptist)?

Also, are you saying that God *is* the creator of sin or you're disagreeing with that interpretation? Is god not also supposed to be omniscient? How about omnipotent? To say something turned out differently than he thought is illogical because then he cannot be omniscient and that contradicts the bible too.

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Here are some of the wonderful choices that chrystianity offers:
The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the victim from the ceiling by the wrists, which are tied behind the back. Sometimes weights were tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which the arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated.[65] The toca, also called interrogatorio mejorado del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning (see: waterboarding).[66] The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently.[67]

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

So, I can put a gun to your head and tell you that I'm giving you a choice. You can say "Siggie is awesome and I worship her!" or I can blow your brains out. That's totally a "choice", right? "The choice is yours and you deal with the consequences of your choice."

No that's not how it is at all. When I say you live with the consequences, I mean you live with the consequences of what happens in your afterlife. I guess if you reject Christianity, you also reject the notion of its afterlife so it should be no problem for people like you. No one is saying that if you don't follow Christianity you are going to be killed in the present life.

First of all, why should I read that and consider it authoritative in the least? You don't even give any source information whatsoever. What makes the interpretation you share any more valid than any other interpretation of the bible (e.g. Westboro Baptist)?

Also, are you saying that God *is* the creator of sin or you're disagreeing with that interpretation? Is god not also supposed to be omniscient? How about omnipotent? To say something turned out differently than he thought is illogical because then he cannot be omniscient and that contradicts the bible too.

Humans are imperfect creatures. So we sin, which goes opposed to what God desired. It's a fact of life. What does God's omnipotence have to do with what I'm saying? He respects our free will, but with that respect comes the fact that as imperfect creatures we will sin. It's a trade-off but a very important one.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Here are some of the wonderful choices that chrystianity offers:
The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the victim from the ceiling by the wrists, which are tied behind the back. Sometimes weights were tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which the arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated.[65] The toca, also called interrogatorio mejorado del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning (see: waterboarding).[66] The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently.[67]

Hey now, you're letting all the U.S. military secrets out.