How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Btw i got nothing against the use of big racks.

[Hyreniq]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

How do you come to the conclusion that when people can choose that they choose to believe? Reality shows a very different picture; look at Western Europe where people have the choice and most are starting to chose not to believe in god and all the superstition that it is surrounded with.

Most? Can you provide some evidence for this.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

So, I can put a gun to your head and tell you that I'm giving you a choice. You can say "Siggie is awesome and I worship her!" or I can blow your brains out. That's totally a "choice", right? "The choice is yours and you deal with the consequences of your choice."

Siggie is awesome and I worship her!

So no gun (or big rack) is needed.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

When I say you live with the consequences, I mean you live with the consequences of what happens in your afterlife.

So the entire base of your morality rests on the fact that you will be rewarded for your good actions by god in some afterlife. That's bribery and there's nothing noble or moral about that. When I do good things I do it for the sake of the act and for the benefit it gives to the other person. I don't expect to be rewarded with eternal paradise for following the dictates of an overlord. That would mean humans have morals equal to that of a dog listening to its master just to get a treat. And to top it off there is no reason to believe in an afterlife in the first place.

No one is saying that if you don't follow Christianity you are going to be killed in the present life.

Not in this life, but we will be tortured in the afterlife for eternity according to humble and gentle Jesus (nothing humble or gentle about that proposition). You cannot have true morality by using fear to force people to blindly obey dictates. Nevermind that the entity dictating is fictional and all eye-witness accounts of him are lies peddled by charlatans and people concerned with power in THIS life. Its not a coincidence that anyone who claims to have met god also claims to have the right to tell others what to do.

So we sin, which goes opposed to what God desired.

How can you, or any human for that matter, possibly know what god desires? I've never heard anyone make a sensible argument for this. Its really arrogant to say you understand god's desires. Its also contradictory to the Christian tenet of humility.

Multiculturalism is dangerous to our nation because with fragile demographics, we need to focus on strengthening our identity and culture not giving way to foreign cultures that would change our society into something else.

Whats more foreign to Armenian culture than an eccentric J ewish preacher in Palestine who discussed old J ewish desert myths and out-of-this-world entities?

More people have died as a result of Communism, Nazism, and such non-religious/secular ideologies than by Christianity. As I said before though, "In the end, you can't use the failures of some churches throughout history to invalidate the Christian faith. "

Nazism was not secular or non-religious. In Mein Kampf Hitler clearly says that god has given him a mandate for his political goals. Most members of the Wehrmacht were confessing Catholics and Catholic churches across the Third Reich were aiding Nazis by peddling their propaganda and spying on their own congregations. The entire hatred for J ews was the result of 2,000 years of Christian dogma about how J ews killed Christ (the official position of the Catholic church until a few years ago). Then you have all the weird Pagan crap mixed in. There is nothing secular or non-religious about Nazism, in fact its the exact opposite of secularism.

As far as Communism, yes you have to be an atheist to be a communist, however lack of belief in god does not give justification to do horrible things. Being an atheist is like being a non-basketball player - Its not a source of guidance to do any particular thing, so atheism itself does not cause people to commit any one action. By contrast, the horrible things that are done in the name of religion are written in the texts themselves and are advanced by the protectors of the faith. Huge difference there.

Our system of values are greatly influenced by the fundamental teachings of Christianity. The "great men of the enlightenment" didn't invent things out of the air, they are also influenced by this system in one way or another.

That's somewhat true. However its obvious they were more influenced by ancient Greek & Roman knowledge as well as other pre-Christian traditions which were based on logic & reason rather than fear & superstition.

And I repeat once again, you can't use the failures of the Catholic Church for example during some period of time to invalidate the Christian faith. It doesn't work that way.

This is also true and I agree with you. The Christian faith is invalidated because of its actual texts. The horrible actions of its followers is just a natural consequence of the faulty logic & immoral teachings of the religion itself.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Nazism was not secular or non-religious. In Mein Kampf Hitler clearly says that god has given him a mandate for his political goals. Most members of the Wehrmacht were confessing Catholics and Catholic churches across the Third Reich were aiding Nazis by peddling their propaganda and spying on their own congregations. The entire hatred for J ews was the result of 2,000 years of Christian dogma about how J ews killed Christ (the official position of the Catholic church until a few years ago). Then you have all the weird Pagan crap mixed in. There is nothing secular or non-religious about Nazism, in fact its the exact opposite of secularism.

How many Chinese died during WW2? Did they kill Jesus too?

Since you brought it up, have you ever heard about the real holocaust (burnt offering) named Dresden? You should really give it a read but I'm sure you'll find yourself disgusted by how the 'allies' during WW2 could massacre an entire city of civilians which had nothing to do with war.

Yes, good ole' Winston Churchill gave the go ahead to disintegrate an entire city of civilians for sh!ts and giggles. There were no J3ws or Nazis there by the way.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

How many Chinese died during WW2? Did they kill Jesus too?

Masses of Chinese were killed by Japanese soldiers who were taught that their leader was a god and therefore infallible. Another example of a morally backward religious society taught to obey the dictates of an overlord. Any cruelty becomes justified when you have supernatural sanction.

Since you brought it up, have you ever heard about the real holocaust (burnt offering) named Dresden? You should really give it a read but I'm sure you'll find yourself disgusted by how the 'allies' during WW2 could massacre an entire city of civilians which had nothing to do with war.

Yes, good ole' Winston Churchill gave the go ahead to disintegrate an entire city of civilians for sh!ts and giggles. There were no J3ws or Nazis there by the way.

Are you telling me this story about Churchill to imply that secular people also commit horrible crimes? I already knew that. Being secular doesn't guarantee that a person will act good or bad. Let me emphasize my point with the following saying: Without religion, good people would do good things and bad people would do bad things. But if you want a good person to do bad things, that takes religion.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Masses of Chinese were killed by Japanese soldiers who were taught that their leader was a god and therefore infallible. Another example of a morally backward religious society taught to obey the dictates of an overlord. Any cruelty becomes justified when you have supernatural sanction.

This is your belief of why armies controlled by Empires end up doing awful things as shown over and over throughout history (both biblical and modern historical)? You really believe that a person in power and authority would have any more or less influence depending on whether he/she claimed to be a god? The actions of military forces can't be blamed to that of civil society. The true cruelty Japanese civilians witnessed was when their cities were fire bombed then ultimately atomic bombed in response to the commands of the Japanese military. Trading the deaths of innocent lives for those of other innocent lives seems like the work of a true evil organization.

Are you telling me this story about Churchill to imply that secular people also commit horrible crimes? I already knew that. Being secular doesn't guarantee that a person will act good or bad. Let me emphasize my point with the following saying: Without religion, good people would do good things and bad people would do bad things. But if you want a good person to do bad things, that takes religion.

If you want a good person to do bad things, that takes corruption.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This is your belief of why armies controlled by Empires end up doing awful things as shown over and over throughout history (both biblical and modern historical)? You really believe that a person in power and authority would have any more or less influence depending on whether he/she claimed to be a god? The actions of military forces can't be blamed to that of civil society.

Stupid & cruel decisions by leaders are facilitated and tolerated by group psychology, namely the attitude that there is virtue in obeying the dictates of an overlord. There is no system which instills this attitude into people more so than religion. This can be Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Communism, State religion, Fascism, etc. People with a regular moral compass become compelled to commit unthinkable acts which they would never do if they didn't think there was an entity beyond all earthly forces which supports them in their cruelty.

Let me add that although religion is easily used as a force for evil it can also be used to compel people to do good things. My point in this regard is that you don't need to teach people superstition to compel them to do good things. Its more effective and healthy to teach people to do good things for pragmatic reasons than it is to tell them that you better do what Mr. Dictator says or else he'll burn you forever. This is false, dishonest and it nullifies the true virtue of morality and ethics. There's no virtue in being moral because you expect a reward for it somewhere down the line.

If you want a good person to do bad things, that takes corruption.

The more absurd and unrealistic a person's beliefs, the easier it is to corrupt them without them even noticing.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

My point in this regard is that you don't need to teach people superstition to compel them to do good things. Its more effective and healthy to teach people to do good things for pragmatic reasons than it is to tell them that you better do what Mr. Dictator says or else he'll burn you forever. This is false, dishonest and it nullifies the true virtue of morality and ethics. There's no virtue in being moral because you expect a reward for it somewhere down the line.

Life is based on a reward system. You would not work unless you were rewarded with at least food, drink and a place to rest/sleep. Those are the basics of life. Corruption is the result of being rewarded for doing something bad or harmful to others, directly or indirectly.

The more absurd and unrealistic a person's beliefs, the easier it is to corrupt them without them even noticing.

The Native Indians believed in many things that other cultures would see as absurd. They did not know of corruption until the Europeans brought with them all the things that began to destroy their culture.

"Our culture is derivative of the natural resources. If our culture dies, the only reminants are its physical attributes, which will soon be dispersed to the natural environment. If that happens, there will be no trace of our living culture."

~ Stuart Harris, a Cayuse Indian & senior staff scientist

Basically what he's saying is we are born from the elements of the Earth. If we all die, our physical being returns back to nature and we simply cease to exist (as a culture).

Like the natives, if Armenians no longer live to give birth to other Armenians, we will no longer exist and that will ultimately be the end of our culture.

[MrHyeSev]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

It is very easy to answer to the question asked
How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?
Answer: 100%

It's not only history, it's also the truth