Just when I think I've seen the sickest of people...

[HyeJinx1984]

Who likes Rainbows?

[Crimson Glow]

I wanted crimson to understand what I was saying in my other posts not that one. and no I didnt miss anything concering free will. thats how i see it. you might have a different definition.when I said stop blaming God I meant that is what people do in general not just in this case nor did I say you should stop blaming Him.

Oh, I understood what you were saying. The point of my follow up questioning is that I'm failing to see how that answer pertains to Slueth's original question, which was basically asking why didn't god display some divine intervention to protect the helpless and meek.

If it's not god's job to interfere when there is wrong being done to the innocent, and he's just thrown us here to take on whatever may come in an existence HE created....well....quite frankly, that's just cruel and sick. To know he has the power, and is going to use some lame ass excuse like "I gave you all free will. If you use that will to kill 1.5 million Armenians because they won't give up their faith in me, well....then.....gash darn it, I'll just have to get even with you when you are dead, because I'm sure as hell (no pun intended) not going to stop you from doing it right now". No wonder we're big into the "it's not my fault" style of living. LOOK WHO STARTED IT!!

More importantly, if god's "laid out a path for us", and knows everything we will ever do long before we are even born, what is exactly the purpose of this little charade? Are we here just to enact a play he wrote? His personally ammusement?

Who likes Rainbows?

You're not trying to recruit for a gay pride parade, are you?

[angelik22]

who likes rainbows?

the lucky charms leprachaun!!
hearts, stars,horseshoes, clovers and baloons

[XxgoeyxX]

Oh, I understood what you were saying. The point of my follow up questioning is that I'm failing to see how that answer pertains to Slueth's original question, which was basically asking why didn't god display some divine intervention to protect the helpless and meek.

If it's not god's job to interfere when there is wrong being done to the innocent, and he's just thrown us here to take on whatever may come in an existence HE created....well....quite frankly, that's just cruel and sick. To know he has the power, and is going to use some lame ass excuse like "I gave you all free will. If you use that will to kill 1.5 million Armenians because they won't give up their faith in me, well....then.....gash darn it, I'll just have to get even with you when you are dead, because I'm sure as hell (no pun intended) not going to stop you from doing it right now". No wonder we're big into the "it's not my fault" style of living. LOOK WHO STARTED IT!!

I just finished my essay...Im tired and poooped out so I'm not even gone comment on this one. Thinking makes my head hurt at the moment.

[Anonymouse]

Oh, I understood what you were saying. The point of my follow up questioning is that I'm failing to see how that answer pertains to Slueth's original question, which was basically asking why didn't god display some divine intervention to protect the helpless and meek.

If it's not god's job to interfere when there is wrong being done to the innocent, and he's just thrown us here to take on whatever may come in an existence HE created....well....quite frankly, that's just cruel and sick. To know he has the power, and is going to use some lame ass excuse like "I gave you all free will. If you use that will to kill 1.5 million Armenians because they won't give up their faith in me, well....then.....gash darn it, I'll just have to get even with you when you are dead, because I'm sure as hell (no pun intended) not going to stop you from doing it right now". No wonder we're big into the "it's not my fault" style of living. LOOK WHO STARTED IT!!

More importantly, if god's "laid out a path for us", and knows everything we will ever do long before we are even born, what is exactly the purpose of this little charade? Are we here just to enact a play he wrote? His personally ammusement?

Hello, my most enlightened enemy outside of the Matrix. I find your post most interesting, even though it didn't free my mind, but interesting for precisely the reason that people usually use this as an objection to the existence of God. "Why did God allow all this evil to occur?" the question resonates. That is why the Book of Job is so captivating to us, since it deals with this. Thomas Aquinas noted two important objections to the belief in God, one was science, and the second one was the problem of evil. If he is all good, and all wise, and all loving, why so much bad things in this world? And so, the unbeliever will use this as a measuring stick for his belief or unbelief.

There are some flaws with this argument, but it goes to the root of it, the fact that evil is a "thing", countered by another duality of a thing called "good", like the Manichees used to believe, as St. Augustine noted in his The Confessions. In fact, if understood properly, there is no "evil". It is all good. It is all meant for man. Despite all the ills and vices and treachery of the world, life is for living. The Genesis explains God as being good, and all the things he created were good, therefore there is no evil, and evil is not a "thing", but a wrong choice. Hence the ability of free will, to have the free will to do good works, one must have the free will to do evil works.

Therefore, the cause of evil is free will. And if God created free will, the argument says God created evil. No he did not. As I said, evil is not a thing, nor is it an illusion. It is choice. There is no other way to look at it. Physical evil is caused by spiritual evil. Evil exists because of sin and selfishness. If you took those away, you'd have that earthly utopia Marxists incessantly rant about. But we are imperfect beings and thus this life a school and a struggle, for another. Would we prefer God had made us not have free will, and instead be lifeless robots or automatons and not humans?

[Crimson Glow]

I'm not asking that he not give us free will. And I'm not asking that he control thought. But, if someone is going to use that free will poorly, and inflict repulsive harm on someone who wants to live his/her life "righteously" according to the good book....are you saying god has basically washed his hands of it, and you will have to endour whatever this person wants to do to you? This child had no way of being saved from the mercy of the father's choice, regardless of its innocence?

Now let's say that is the case. He created the universe, put us on Earth, and said "I give you free will. Use it as you may, but beware the consequences at the end of this life". If these are the rules of the game, then why does he, in certain circumstances, "provide miracles", while watching idly as things like the original story happen?

I'm just discussing this for the sake of understanding believers take on this issue better, which you've done a good job explaining so far. I always like to look at everything from as many sides as possible. My personal reasons for not believing go a bit deeper than the "where was god" excuse (which I agree, is pretty weak since the Bible has already provided a clause for such things), or even science.

[sleuth]

No what I meant by “free will” is to not go kill who ever you want or do whatever you want. Free will means He gave us choices, He gave us the will to understand Him to find Him and to go by his words.

But what is important here is do you fear God? Do you follow his words? Do you do all you can to have a pure soul, pure heart and a pure life? This man didn’t seem like he felt any of those things. It’s hard for us to do all these things but that’s what free will is. Well in my opinion.

.

Romans 3:10-12
*There is none righteous, no not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.*

In other words, no one does good and no one really seeks God.

In the eye of GOD you ,me,poghos,petros as much sinners as this man.
This stats that God can still find fault.And u never know that this man who killed his child won't be the very next person choosen by GOD.

Romans 9:18-20

*Therefore He has mercy on whom He WILLS,and whom He WILLS He hardens.
You will say to me then " why he does still find faults?For who has resist HIS WILL?
But indeed,O man,who are you to reply agains GOD?*

This is also showing that it is not up to us to choose salvation but up to God to choose us.

You may not like it, but that is the Word of God and thats the FREE WILL.
Final point, that Romans 9 disproved FREE WILL.And this is not only my humble opinoin.
Romans 3 shows that we cannot do good, which means that our Free Will is limited. The meaning of Romans 3 is that no one can do good, no one can choose God. In other words, on my own I never chose God, God chose ME. So, my free will is limited , according to Roman: 3

Gohar i am pretty sure u read Bible and most of your ponts and interperatations are valid and very well justified,but you didn't grasp the nature of GOD.
*But what is important here is do you fear God?*<-this is preposterious and very distractive by its nature.
The reason most ppl hate GOD is FEAR!!! FEAR creates hate,thus fear God is not enought to do all those things,it's enought to hate him.
Jesus was archetype of his heavenly father,i wouldn't say he was scary.

[XxgoeyxX]

Romans 3:10-12
*There is none righteous, no not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.*

In other words, no one does good and no one really seeks God.

In the eye of GOD you ,me,poghos,petros as much sinners as this man.
This stats that God can still find fault.And u never know that this man who killed his child won't be the very next person choosen by GOD.

Romans 9:18-20

*Therefore He has mercy on whom He WILLS,and whom He WILLS He hardens.
You will say to me then " why he does still find faults?For who has resist HIS WILL?
But indeed,O man,who are you to reply agains GOD?*


You may not like it, but that is the Word of God and thats the FREE WILL.
Final point, that Romans 9 disproved FREE WILL.And this is not only my humble opinoin.
Romans 3 shows that we cannot do good, which means that our Free Will is limited. The meaning of Romans 3 is that no one can do good, no one can choose God. In other words, on my own I never chose God, God chose ME. So, my free will is limited , according to Roman: 3

Gohar i am pretty sure u read Bible and most of your ponts and interperatations are valid and very well justified,but you didn't grasp the nature of GOD.
*But what is important here is do you fear God?*<-this is preposterious and very distractive by its nature.
The reason most ppl hate GOD is FEAR!!! FEAR creates hate,thus fear God is not enought to do all those things,it's enought to hate him.
Jesus was archetype of his heavenly father,i wouldn't say he was scary.

You said "it is not up to us to choose salvation but up to God to choose us." I said that as well. Because in the end it is up to God. That man that killed the baby can be a choosen by God. I have no argument on that. You stated that as well. Like I said in the end God choose THROUGH our free will -not against it nor because of it.

I have grasped the nature of God, the best that I can. your mis-understanding me. I agree with you on all the stuff you said. I am not saying fear God. Be scared to death of Him. this is because it is my fault cause I used the wrong words to describe what I meant to say. Words do that to people. They get other meanings out of it. But I get what you said. I completely understand you.

See your definition of Free Will is understandable. I get it. I have read that. I know that. But let me tell you one more thing. tell me if Im wrong on this. and tell me where you think I made a mistake for believing this.
Can you show me another place where the Bible shows that people are not free to choose. The potter and the clay is probably their best shot. But part of what it means to be a human (that which God made) is to be a free, rational creature so it begs the question to say that the clay is not able to choose. If that's how God made us then that is how He made us. We know that God's WILL is that all men come to him - how then does even one escape? If we had no free will then we would not be able to resist His will. It just doesn't make sense.
by the way of course there are limition to free will....I knew that to. there is so much to state I forget half the stuff i need to say.
By the way I rather be wrong and learn the truth....then go on and on about something and believe its the truth when its not at all. No hard feelings. I love this stuff......

[Anonymouse]

I'm not asking that he not give us free will. And I'm not asking that he control thought. But, if someone is going to use that free will poorly, and inflict repulsive harm on someone who wants to live his/her life "righteously" according to the good book....are you saying god has basically washed his hands of it, and you will have to endour whatever this person wants to do to you? This child had no way of being saved from the mercy of the father's choice, regardless of its innocence?

Now let's say that is the case. He created the universe, put us on Earth, and said "I give you free will. Use it as you may, but beware the consequences at the end of this life". If these are the rules of the game, then why does he, in certain circumstances, "provide miracles", while watching idly as things like the original story happen?

I'm just discussing this for the sake of understanding believers take on this issue better, which you've done a good job explaining so far. I always like to look at everything from as many sides as possible. My personal reasons for not believing go a bit deeper than the "where was god" excuse (which I agree, is pretty weak since the Bible has already provided a clause for such things), or even science.

I see you have decided to go for the "Why do bad things happen to good people" argument. That always seems a puzzle for non-believers, and rightly so, it is of course another good objection for the belief in God, much like the problem of evil. However, there are assumptions with this argument that need to be let go of. We could very well ask the question, why do good things happen to bad people? Who says who is good or not? The best people are the ones most reluctant to admit they are good or righteous and the worst ones are the ones who loudly proclaim their goodness.

And as I already mentioned, who is to say suffering is bad? Suffering is actually to be there. It is meant for man. He must endure. You cannot call suffering "evil". The choices we make that are sinful and selfish from our free will, those are evil. Suffering is good, for it is precisely what makes man differentiate and ponder between good and evil choices. Life without suffering would produce spoiled selfish arrogant quacks. Those who have not suffered could not know anything. It is the puzzle piece for wisdom. It's not so much that suffering is good, but rather it all works out for the good of those who have faith in God.

As far as miracles go, it is an entirely different thing from the world of suffering we witness. A miracle is a call to faith, a supernatural sign and wonder by God, showing is power over nature. Two things happen during miracles. They either make a person believe, or they further seal a persons unbelief. But in order to accept a miracle as a miracle, one must first have an inkling desire to believe.

[sad_eyes]

People like that disgust me.