Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

European vs American Universities

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • European vs American Universities

    An interesting article from The Economist highlights the differences between the universities of America and Europe, and why American universities have ranked higher than European universities. So much for all those "state funded" and "free education" people who constantly try to explain Europe's system as somehow "better".

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How Europe fails its young
    Sep 8th 2005

    The state of Europe's higher education is a long-term threat to its competitiveness

    THOSE Europeans who are tempted, in the light of the dismal scenes in New Orleans this fortnight, to downgrade the American challenge should meditate on one word: universities. Five years ago in Lisbon European officials proclaimed their intention to become the world's premier “knowledge economy” by 2010. The thinking behind this grand declaration made sense of a sort: Europe's only chance of preserving its living standards lies in working smarter than its competitors rather than harder or cheaper. But Europe's failing higher-education system poses a lethal threat to this ambition.

    Europe created the modern university. Scholars were gathering in Paris and Bologna before America was on the map. Oxford and Cambridge invented the residential university: the idea of a community of scholars living together to pursue higher learning. Germany created the research university. A century ago European universities were a magnet for scholars and a model for academic administrators the world over.

    But, as our survey of higher education explains, since the second world war Europe has progressively surrendered its lead in higher education to the United States. America boasts 17 of the world's top 20 universities, according to a widely used global ranking by the Shanghai Jiao Tong University. American universities currently employ 70% of the world's Nobel prize-winners, 30% of the world's output of articles on science and engineering, and 44% of the most frequently cited articles. No wonder developing countries now look to America rather than Europe for a model for higher education.

    Why have European universities declined so precipitously in recent decades? And what can be done to restore them to their former glory? The answer to the first question lies in the role of the state. American universities get their funding from a variety of different sources, not just government but also philanthropists, businesses and, of course, the students themselves. European ones are largely state-funded. The constraints on state funding mean that European governments force universities to “process” more and more students without giving them the necessary cash—and respond to the universities' complaints by trying to micromanage them. Inevitably, quality has eroded. Yet, as the American model shows, people are prepared to pay for good higher education, because they know they will benefit from it: that's why America spends twice as much of its GDP on higher education as Europe does.

    The answer to the second question is to set universities free from the state. Free universities to run their internal affairs: how can French universities, for example, compete for talent with their American rivals when professors are civil servants? And free them to charge fees for their services—including, most importantly, student fees.

    Asia's learning

    The standard European retort is that if people have to pay for higher education, it will become the monopoly of the rich. But spending on higher education in Europe is highly regressive (more middle-class students go to university than working-class ones). And higher education is hardly a monopoly of the rich in America: a third of undergraduates come from racial minorities, and about a quarter come from families with incomes below the poverty line. The government certainly has a responsibility to help students to borrow against their future incomes. But student fees offer the best chance of pumping more resources into higher education. They also offer the best chance of combining equity with excellence.

    Europe still boasts some of the world's best universities, and there are some signs that policymakers have realised that their system is failing. Britain, the pacemaker in university reform in Europe, is raising fees. The Germans are trying to create a Teutonic Ivy League. European universities are aggressively wooing foreign students. Pan-European plans are encouraging student mobility and forcing the more eccentric European countries (notably Germany) to reform their degree structures. But the reforms have been too tentative.

    America is not the only competition Europe faces in the knowledge economy. Emerging countries have cottoned on to the idea of working smarter as well as harder. Singapore is determined to turn itself into a “knowledge island”. India is sprucing up its institutes of technology. In the past decade China has doubled the size of its student population while pouring vast resources into elite universities. Forget about catching up with America; unless Europeans reform their universities, they will soon be left in the dust by Asia as well.

    The state of Europe's higher education is a long-term threat to its competitiveness
    Achkerov kute.

  • #2
    Iiiiiinteresting. How come Yerevan's universities aren't mentioned?

    Comment


    • #3
      There are two factors: professors and students.
      For professors, certainly the university atmosphere in US is more appealing, due to, as the author says, more financial and entrepreneurial freedoms that researchers can have, more ties between the industrial and academic spheres and downright larger pays. However, a large part of that is the collective prestige of US universities, almost like a brand name. I believe that the start of this prestige accumulation was, as the author also said, around WWII, when US was the most stable place in the world. This is why some of the greatest minds of the world, like Von Neumann and Einstein -- two who put the the Institute of Advanced Studies in Princeton on the map -- came to pursue their studies in US. So, my thesis, is that due to relatively non-volatile and highly rewarding life that awaited the bright researchers of early 20th century, the US universities very rapidly accumulated a lot of pedigree. That pedigree is self-replenishing. It'd be very hard for European universities to compete with this pedigree.

      The relatively easy naturalization for bright foreign nationals in technology/engineering fields with a lot of prospect for good funding (for graduate students of course) is a very large impetus for choosing US universities rather than European ones. This is why I think that in the post-911 world, the conditions are ripe for Europe to snatch the foreign student market away from US, especially if now US is putting a cap on working visas -- even for engineering/technology researchers. Also, don't forget the language. US culture and language is exported so much, that it would be infinitely easier to learn to speak and live in English than in say German or Dutch.
      Last edited by karoaper; 09-08-2005, 08:22 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The relatively easy naturalization for bright foreign nationals in technology/engineering fields with a lot of prospect for good funding (for graduate students of course) is a very large impetus for choosing US universities rather than European ones.
        The school I went to in the middle of nowhere Missouri, was swarmed with Turks. They were number 3 after Indians and Chinese.

        Comment


        • #5
          America boasts 17 of the world's top 20 universities
          True.America's top Universities are better than the top Universities of Europe.

          But they ''accidentaly'' forgot to mention the amount of money that someone has to pay,in order to attend in those ''Top American Universities''.Thus those Universities in America are open only to people who have the economic ability to attend to them.Hence the children of the upper classes receive a better education than those from the lower classes.

          As a result we observe crystal clearly the racist and discriminating society of America,which is a direct result of a political volition, and the true essense of their rotten Capitalist system.This phenomenon can be observed in all the aspects of the American way of life.From thousands of homeless people in New York, to the most recent events in the New Orleans,in which the people from the lower classes were left in the mercy of God, so that after a week the wife of a former American President say this: ''They were underprivilegged,so this is working very well for them.''

          In a system that in its hierarchy the most important thing is profit , you can not excpect any better than that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Red Brigade
            True.America's top Universities are better than the top Universities of Europe.

            But they ''accidentaly'' forgot to mention the amount of money that someone has to pay,in order to attend in those ''Top American Universities''.Thus those Universities in America are open only to people who have the economic ability to attend to them.Hence the children of the upper classes receive a better education than those from the lower classes.
            I disagree. There are scholarships available to those "top universities" and there are financial aid opportunities including loans, but that's not even the point.

            The name and reputation of the university is not necessarily indicative of a good education. Individual programs vary greatly. For years UCLA has been encouraging their psychology graduates to go to CSUN for an Experimental Psych MA because CSUN had superior stats and methods training available (had because sadly it's not so great anymore).

            My point is there aren't "top universities" that are top for every field. Those top schools change depending on individual educational objectives. What's also important is what each person makes of their education. You can have great opportunities to enrich your education, but if you never take advantage of them, then you have failed to obtain the education that was available to you. Just going to a top school isn't enough.

            As an aside because I find this intersting: To get a position in academia for example, it's not so much where you got your degree and even less what your grades were, it's what research you did. The part of the grades not being important is something I'm personally struggling with. It's been so important up to this point, it's hard to dismiss my coursework as secondary (at best).
            [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
            -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Anonymouse
              An interesting article from The Economist highlights the differences between the universities of America and Europe, and why American universities have ranked higher than European universities. So much for all those "state funded" and "free education" people who constantly try to explain Europe's system as somehow "better".
              In many regards they are. At least in assuming the role of education as in transmission of knowledge. Public Universities are not necessarily of lower quality in all countries as they are in the US.

              In any case, I hope that the poor quality of the Economist's article will not be considered as an indicator of the Educational System that the writer is praising; otherwise the US Universities would not rank too high! In fact, it is amalgam of many misconceptions, rumors and half-baked "facts."


              Anything as complex as an Educational System can only be multidimensional in nature. The set of dimensions or attributes characterizing any two "comparable???" systems do not necessarily - actually never in reality - completely match. Furthermore, when two attributes "match" they usually have different - but somehow close - semantics - in technical words they have different domains - and cannot be accurately compared . Any comparison - therefore ranking - of such multidimensional entities/systems can only be based on an oversimplification - or a view. Such a view is usually materialized as a set of quantifiable indicators that may - and usually do - distort the facts for - at least - the following two reasons:
              1- Limits the comparison to a subset of carefully selected - and for obvious reasons - quantifiable attributes
              2- A weighting system that makes the ranking even more biased

              In other words, different methodologies - set of parameters and weight systems - would yield different results.
              Such rankings can only suggest trends from a certain and limited point of view.

              The above is also true of the Shanghai Jiao Tong University's ranking methodology that is described at


              One can easily argue that each of the five indicators are biased. I will limit myself to a couple of points. Also, I will limit myself to France and the US.
              1- The concept of University is slightly different in the US and compared to France. In the US, a University is an institution where knowledge is transmitted and research is conducted; while in the French system there exists institutions that are independent from Universities and are specialized in conducting research. Of course, there may be a cooperation between the two type of institutions and some research is conducted in Universities, but they are - from a legal and organizational point of view - distinct. Therefore, it would be obviously erroneous to compare the "Research Output" of French and American Universities.

              2- An American University closely collaborates with the business world and one of its goals is to provide human resources to the business world. The business world funds many - if not most - of the research projects. The French view such close integration as undesirable - of course, that is debatable - and prefers a clear separation between education and professional formation. That is a guarantee of the autonomy of the University.
              Contrary to the claim of the author of the Economist's article that seems to be based on many rumors and misconceptions, the French University enjoys "total" autonomy.

              3- Another important difference between American and French Universities is the fact that French Universities do not offer - with very few exception - engineering curricula. There exist a myriad of "Engineering Schools." The reason is that the University usually focuses on "fundamental" Science as opposed to applied. The curriculum of the Engineering Schools is of higher quality than what American Universities offer.

              The above mentioned differences should be enough to make the findings of the Shanghai University just a biased opinion, a simplified view. The Shanghai University's methodology is biased because it favors post-graduate and higher level activities i.e. research projects or research intensive studies.

              My exposure to both systems suggests that up to the Bachelor degree - and in some cases Masters degree - the French Educational System is more "complete," diverse and of higher quality; including in Computer Science and Mathematics.
              In other words, before post-graduate studies American Universities do not offer higher quality education; at the contrary. .
              It is a fact that few people pursue post graduate studies. It is also a fact that research projects are crucial for the competitive Economy and the Educational System in general.

              In post graduate activities, American Universities start showing an edge due to many reasons, including:
              1- Organizational i.e. include more research oriented departments and activities
              2- More dynamic - because much more eagerly materialistic! - population
              3- Better funded research projects because of a more dynamic and stronger economy - i.e. bigger share of new sectors of the industry
              4- Better monetary prospects
              5- ....

              The main weakness of the European Educational System is
              1- Less funding in advanced research projects i.e. post-graduate level or higher. Actually, allocating more funds for research projects is debated within the EU. It would definitely help.
              2- Little integration of the research projects with the business world. Personally, I think that some independence should exist and the American University suffers of an excess integration - or should I say dependence.
              What if I find someone else when looking for you? My soul shivers as the idea invades my mind.

              Comment

              Working...
              X