Gas Reformulation

[Sip]

Re: Gas Reformulation

The fox news special didn't say anything special about the product. They did a smog test before and after on a really old car and noticed reduction in some of the polutants. The problem is you run ANY sort of carb/injector cleaner through the system of a car that is that old, you will most likely see similar results (if not better).

Getting a really old car to run cleaner is not a "validation" of the grand claims they make. Of course the "rocket scientist" (aka emission testing "expert") doing the smog check then makes the conclusion that because the emissions are reduced, probably the gas milage is much higher ... why not simply report the actual gas milage instead? Could it be because it might not even be enough to measure on a tank of gas?

And while we are on the subject of the amazing fox news report, does ANYONE want to explain to me what the hell did the "Mechanical Engineering Professor" that was interviewed and those students fixing/modifying engines had ANYTHING to do with the ethos product? That's what angers me about these stupid "reports" ... they talk to some professor about something completely unrelated, and attach it to some advertisement of some product that had NOTHING to do with the other ... all this to just create the illusion of credibility

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Gas Reformulation

Bell, I think Siggie's reaction to Anahita is quite justified here. I mean come on ... I express my view on how most of these "gas saving" tricks are nothing but gimmicks designed to separate you from your money and all of a sudden I am some anti-earth environment thrashing mo-fo?

I'm sorry but that's just as rediculous a view as those who get mad at you for not "supporting the troops" when you make some sort of anti-bush comment. It's all the same single-midded "you are with us or against us" bull crap.

Just because I don't believe a certain fuel saving gimmick is legit, it doesn't mean I am not interested in fuel saving strategies. THAT is the main reason Anahita is under redicule in the forum because her "passion" for whatever she thinks is right blocks her ability to separate reality from her fantasy.

I don't think that is what Anahita actually said or meant (but maybe she could clarify). I think she, like you, was saying that this "fuel saving" IS a a gimmick. And that we will start to see many more such gimmicks that will be used as an excuse for people to not change their lifestyles and actually use less fuel.

[Otto3]

Re: Gas Reformulation

i am working on a new boiler to power a steam turbine and a burning room for hydrogene... that will be a revolution... i dont think i will succeed but it is fun

[Anahita]

Re: Gas Reformulation

Anahita, you should read Michael Crichton's State of Fear. You remind of the irrational environmentalists in there. You're willing to anything to accomplish what is good in your mind, but you never consider the possibility that what you believe is good or necessary may not be.

I was being ironic with much of the last message—not about the (fossil fuel) oil situation, but other parts. I’ll try to be more unambiguous when I do that. I know that doesn’t always come across. That image was more of an inside joke. The ‘get out of my way… or I will obliterate you’ (while claiming it is in 'your own good') is exactly how I perceive the US going to war (or doing other interventions) with nations over oil. This is a disgusting, “give us your oil or we will attack you mentality.” The “stick our ‘heads’ in the sand” part was referring to an Ani Defranco song and the general idea of:



It is true that the oil will not ‘run out,’ but for all practical purposes it will be gone. It simply gets too expensive and difficult to extract. That doesn’t take into account the non-monetary costs or ecological damage of attempting to drill in sensitive places, or the many other ecological and social/cultural costs of fossil fuel dependency.

The prices of gas right now are acting as a feedback on their own—people are driving less, taking more public transportation/carpooling, considering more fuel efficient cars (and reducing energy consumption in other areas), and so forth. Almost every car company is looking at introducing efficient vehicles. Biodiesel is gaining support. Etc.

As far as the gimmick part (I think Bell-the-cat understood): I meant there will (because of the price of gas) likely be all sorts of new worthless junk being marketed. I can see the infomercials for something you can dump in the tank to make the gas last longer (or others, like that air filter), etc. I think that is funny, because simply driving less, keeping up tire pressure and driving under 60 (etc) does more than any gimmick can for increasing fuel efficiency.

[Sip]

Re: Gas Reformulation

The prices of gas right now are acting as a feedback on their own—people are driving less, taking more public transportation/carpooling, considering more fuel efficient cars (and reducing energy consumption in other areas), and so forth. Almost every car company is looking at introducing efficient vehicles. Biodiesel is gaining support. Etc.

Finally you start to make "some" sense. And no, it's not just "right now" but it is more like "most often" the prices were/are/will be driven by supply and demand. Sure fat cats can get together and collude to artificially mess with the prices in the short term. However, in the longer term, the "oil problem" will fix itself as it starts to "run out". The prices WILL go up and that will force people to look at alternatives.

[Anahita]

Re: Gas Reformulation

Finally you start to make "some" sense. And no, it's not just "right now" but it is more like "most often" the prices were/are/will be driven by supply and demand. Sure fat cats can get together and collude to artificially mess with the prices in the short term. However, in the longer term, the "oil problem" will fix itself as it starts to "run out". The prices WILL go up and that will force people to look at alternatives.

I should rephrase that, by right now, I mean that the recent and rapid increase in price that sent clear signals to consumers and, in turn, industry. That differs from the slower kinds of change that don’t register with many people because they are more like ‘creeping normalcy,’ amidst ‘noisy’ fluctuations. Had gas prices slowly inched to what they are now (going up and down a bit, but with a general trend towards increasing), people might not have noticed as much as they do now.

As a sidenote: I'd recommend getting gas at Chevron, if you can. Their environmental and human rights record is much better than many other oil companies (and they should be rewarded for that with customer support).

[Sip]

Re: Gas Reformulation

I should rephrase that, by right now, I mean that the recent and rapid increase in price that sent clear signals to consumers and, in turn, industry. That differs from the slower kinds of change ...

Just to put things in some perspective, FYI, this is not the first time the US has been facing a very unpopular war, huge trade deficit, foreign competition taking the domestic jobs, high fuel prices, and on top of it Washington scandals, government spying on Americans, and Iran acting as the big bad dumb ass bully...

... it was almost identical back in the 1970's. I doubt the recent "rapid increase" in energy prices are due to shortages. These recent changes are more due to instability in the world and the agendas of those in power ... of course a lot of good will also come out of it with people starting to not take energy for granted.

But we've been here before and we'll be here again ... it's nothing new.

[Otto3]

Re: Gas Reformulation

iran is not bullying around....US is... they have the right to own whatever they want...

[Anahita]

Re: Gas Reformulation

Just to put things in some perspective, FYI, this is not the first time the US has been facing a very unpopular war, huge trade deficit, foreign competition taking the domestic jobs, high fuel prices, and on top of it Washington scandals, government spying on Americans, and Iran acting as the big bad dumb ass bully...

... it was almost identical back in the 1970's. I doubt the recent "rapid increase" in energy prices are due to shortages. These recent changes are more due to instability in the world and the agendas of those in power ... of course a lot of good will also come out of it with people starting to not take energy for granted.

But we've been here before and we'll be here again ... it's nothing new.

I agree that the prices right now aren’t due to shortages. Oil companies are making record profits. I would rather pay higher prices for gas if it was due to an ecotax that 1) created incentive for safe and renewable energy and 2) went directly back to fund renewable energy, nature conservation and climate change amelioration.

This afternoon I was in the backyard with my daughter (she was catching and IDing bugs). While she did that, I was reading Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed, by Jared Diamond.

More specifically, I finished the chapter “Why do some societies make disastrous decisions? Rational bad behavior” Here is a bit from that:

“We, too, tend to forget things, For a year or two after the gas shortages of the 1973 Gulf War oil crisis, we Americans shied away from gas-guzzling cars, the then we forgot that experience…(423)

Thus, human societies and smaller groups may make disastrous decisions for a whole sequence of reasons: failure to anticipate a problem, failure to perceive it once it has arisen, failure to attempt to solve it after it has been perceived, and failure to succeed in attempts to solve it…

Leaders too self-absorbed in their own pursuit of power to attain to their society’s underlying problems… [to resolve a potential crisis] calls for a leader with a different type of courage to anticipate a growing problem or just a potential one, and to take bold steps to solve it before it becomes an explosive crisis. Such leaders expose themselves to criticism or ridicule for acting before it becomes obvious to everyone that some action is necessary. But there have been many such courageous, insightful, strong leaders who deserve our admiration [then goes on to describe how they avoided disasters through foresight and leadership.] (439)”

I guess, as the cliché goes, if we don’t learn from history, we repeat it. Unfortunately, as we continue to make mistakes such as these, those mistakes limit the possibilities and options for the future. E.g., if we don’t learn from this gas hike, and adjust behavior without forgetting, we may just end up without most we’ve taken for granted. Reagan took the solar panels that Carter had installed off the White House. Bush Jr. is far more short-sighted, in my opinion.

I’d have to agree with Sip, it isn’t just the US acting like a bully. I haven’t been all that pleased with the way Iran’s government is responding to international concern over nuclear development, but I also can see the complete hypocrisy coming from the US government (the only country who has actually used nuclear weapons--and with an administration that is unsigning standing international treaties on nuclear proliferation, and much more...)

[Sip]

Re: Gas Reformulation

Having lived in Iran for half my life, I can VERY comfortably say that a million nukes in the hands of the US is nothing compared to one nuke in the hand of those loonies.

As much as the world wants to b!tch and complain about the US, I doubt too many other nations could have handeled the cold war the way the US did. Just imagine if some radical and completely irrational state (like the current Iran or the previous Iraq or the current North Korea) had, at any point, even for a fraction of a second, the power that US has had. I think in that case, "saving gas" would not have been so high up on Anahita's list of problems with the "environment" (what environment? ).