S.o.s!!

[axel]

Re: S.o.s!!

I guess one could also distinguish pure and applied CS?

Obviously. "Pure" CS deals with theory of computation, complexity theory, analysis of algorithms...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_computer_science

A good intro btw is the book by Sipser:

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Theory-Computation-Second-Michael/dp/0534950973

[Siamanto]

Re: S.o.s!!

Siamanto, you are CLEARLY demonstrating how little knowledge you have of how algorithms have been evolving. You see the word "algorithm" and you seem to associate it with known results such as QuickSort or Dijkstra's shortest path or some other elementary text book example. Just making a RIDICULOUS statement such as "algorithms are not a challenge anymore" (which I do paraphrase to "dismissing as child's play" whether you like it or not) shows you have a LOT of catching up to do in this domain.

Again, you have demonstrated your poor reading and reasoning skills.
1. No, I am not equating alorithms to "QuickSort or Dijkstra's shortest path or some other elementary text book example" and nothing in what I have said imply or suggest such a reduction. Just curious, how did you come to that conclusion: certainly not logically.
2. No, "algorithms are not a challenge anymore" does not mean "dismissing as child's play"

Can the reality be that because you've been exposed to nothing but college type micro-projects and have no idea/knowledge of the challenges of large scale IT infrastructures and software production, you can't see beyond algorithms? So far, your arguments and views suggest it - not limited to this thread.

If you really think algorithms are not a challenge anymore, I guess you are quite satisfied with your email clients ability to filter spam, the amazing
efficiency of airlines, traffic congestions in large cities, the search results you get from google, etc etc etc ...

I don't know what you mean by "efficiency of airlines" but, the challenges of the other problems, listed above, are different and should be considered differently and it is not clear what you have in mind: why don't you tell us what are the challenges of the above (four) problems and let's take it from there?

Do you REALLY want to insist on claiming that those are solved problems?

Another example of your poor reasoning skills? Why are you assuming that the challenges of the above problems are algorithmic in nature? As I have suggested, why don't you state the problems and challenges and let's see if they are algorithmic in nature? You may be surprised.

I am not even going to bring AI into this ... as I'm sure you will claim that AI algorithms are also not a challenge and they are good enough to build your airport.

Please feel free to "bring" anything you think you should; in any case, we both know that you will "bring" anything you can.

[Sip]

Re: S.o.s!!

I think what I have said is fairly clear. Re-read my search engine example as what is an algorithmic challenge these days (just due to the sheer scale of things). Just as your enterprise-type "IT" projects can scale, so can other "projects" ... specifically those that have had to scale with the Internet or Moore's law (both of which obviously scale much faster that most enterprises).

[Siamanto]

Re: S.o.s!!

I think what I have said is fairly clear. Re-read my search engine example as what is an algorithmic challenge these days (just due to the sheer scale of things). Just as your enterprise-type "IT" projects can scale, so can other "projects" ... specifically those that have had to scale with the Internet or Moore's law (both of which obviously scale much faster that most enterprises).

Can't take the challenge?
LOL If you really think that "the search results you get from google, etc etc etc ..." is enough to - - even when you add "due to the scale of things:"
1. Functionally specify the goals
2. Describe the challenges of a proposed solution
3.Put into evidence the algorithmic nature of the challenges
Then you're funny - to say the least, because it may mean that you have no idea of what an IT project is. Even micro-projects require some kind of functional specifications and "solution" documents, and it's needless to remind that a professional or enterprise grade search engine is far from being a micro-project.

[Sip]

Re: S.o.s!!

Fair enough. I will give you a very concrete example in the form of input, output, and constraints. Then you tell me if you think it is a challenge or not.

Input: an RTL (register transfer level) description of the next generation microprocessor. If you don't know what RTL is, think of it as a bunch of registers (places to store bits) connected to each other through logic elements (gates, modules, even more complex cores -- but all essentially boxes with wires going in and wires coming out). You can get this RTL by compiling some HDL (hardware description language such as VHDL or Verilog).

Output: A mask to send to the fab to fabricate the physical chip.

Goal: Minimize area of the chip (directly related to cost and power consumption)

Constraints: There are strong limits on the interconnect (wires), the number of transistors you can cram in a given area, and the layers you can put on top of the chip (interconnect layers). There are also constraints on the clock and how it is distributed (i.e. can't introduce too much skew due to wire delays), as well as the maximum segment length of each wire before you have to put a repeater (and delay the signal by one clock cycle) in order to keep the max delay along any path smaller than the chip clock pulse. Of course there are MANY other constraints but let's just stick to these.

Do you think solving this is a challenge or not?

Some of the tasks: These are what have to be done (not necessarily in order):

1. Partitioning - decide what "bigger module" goes where roughly on the chip.
2. Detailed placement - Layout every module and transistor exactly.
3. Routing - Decide how the interconnect will be wired - let's say you have 5 layers to go through each with varying delays and complexity.
3.1 - Decide on routing of buses, buffer placement, and coarse routing
3.2 - Detailed routing - exact placement of every interconnect
4. Clock distribution - can't introduce too much skew. Power constraints.

Hint: We are talking billions of transistors now and keep in mind interconnect has NOT been scaling the same as feature size (i.e. number of transistors vs number of available wires). You can ignore heat dissipation, capacitance effects between wires that are close, and noise and voltage parasitics for now.

[Sip]

Re: S.o.s!!

By the way, Siamanto, before you get too far in the insults you are about to throw at me, think of only ONE of the small sub problems here ... for example the packing problem:

Input: Bunch of rectangles of various dimensions
Output: A packing of these rectangles in the smallest possible area
Constraints: You can rotate the boxes at 90 degree increments and you can mirror them horizontally or vertically. The boxes may NOT overlap once placed.

Not a challenge? Then maybe we should think about doing a Startup ... I can smell the millions !!!! $$$$$$$

[Siamanto]

Re: S.o.s!!

Fair enough. I will give you a very concrete example in the form of input, output, and constraints. Then you tell me if you think it is a challenge or not.

I will gladly answer your question; but, only after we answer the question:
"Are the challenges in the four problems that you have enumerated earlier are algorithmic in nature or not?"
Let's not jump from one discussion to another; we close the open ones before starting new ones.

[Sip]

Re: S.o.s!!

I think they are algorithmic in nature. Certainly this last one I have posed you is a purely algorithmic question. The web search one is much more complex as there needs to be infrastructure to collect, store, and process the data so I would agree that talking about that can get quite confusing about where the "enterprise infrastructure" stops and where the "search algorithm" begins.

The point right now is whether there are challenging algorithms and hence, whether algorithms can pose a challenge or not.

[Siamanto]

Re: S.o.s!!

By the way, Siamanto, before you get too far in the insults you are about to throw at me, think of only ONE of the small sub problems here ...

Pointing out to your lack of understanding of the IT world is not equivalent to "insults."
For the record, based on the that examples you have given so far - in this thread or others - I would say that your world is "Electrical Engineering" and that explains why you have no appreciation of the challenges that face IT in 2007. All the projects that you have described so far are small scale projects from an IT point of view that may be of great value to Electrical Engineering and the Semi-conductor/Electronics sectors; but not IT per se.

Not a challenge? Then maybe we should think about doing a Startup ... I can smell the millions !!!! $$$$$$$

Why don't you? Now that the Real Estate sector is retreating, the retired money will eventually - a year or two? - be invested in other sectors and Technology is probable candidate. Good timing? I wish you all the success.

[Siamanto]

Re: S.o.s!!

I think they are algorithmic in nature.

You've been asked to show it and, instead, you started talking about a different project.
Such complex problems are "multi-dimensional" in nature and you may be surprised how algorithms may not be the challenge.

Certainly this last one I have posed you is a purely algorithmic question.

Yes, it is; however, as I have explained in my previous post, it is of little IT value and is not an IT challenge. But, as I have promised, I will come back to it once we sort out the existing open questions.

The web search one is much more complex as there needs to be infrastructure to collect, store, and process the data so I would agree that talking about that can get quite confusing about where the "enterprise infrastructure" stops and where the "search algorithm" begins.

The point right now is whether there are challenging algorithms and hence, whether algorithms can pose a challenge or not.

In any architecture, the distinctions and boundaries between what is the "search engine" and/or "search algorithm" and "enterprise infrastructure" - whatever is your Technology Stack or IT Infrastructure - are well defined and clear.
Over and over, you're just telling me that you've never been exposed to enterprise grade projects.