The Gray Days are Over.

[Anonymouse]

Oh yea and on a side note, if you read into anarchism, youll learn that the Spanish Civil War showed that advanced industrial countries can be run without a government or ruling class. In various regions in Catalonia they had thriving industrial areas entirely under workers control (and I don't mean the bullxxxx Bolshevik style 'workers' control)

But they were crushed by force by the fascists (with help from UK, Russia, USA and I think France too). So it was a short term deal and we didn't get to see how it would pan out long term. Try reading up Emile Durkheim's work "The Division of Labor in Society" sometime. He argued that individuality can be retained under capitalism. He argues that class conflict is not inherent in a capitalist system as Marx contended, but rather the unfettered growth of the State power would lead to the extinction of individuality, as it seems to be the case.

[anileve]

And how do you propose we enforce your brilliant ideology? Are you going to educate the entire population of planet earth on how to be independent and get involved into economics? And pay very close attention to the politics while they are trying to survive day by day from the attacks of their vicious neighbors who would like to have them for lunch since it was discovered that human flesh is sacred if consumed, and there is no government to interfere and offer protection? Anon you keep pointing out the flaws in Government but never mention the benefits of anarchy and how would it be applied? Is it because you are really a slave to human conditioning and one among many who likes to appear rebellious, unique and independent, yet influenced by some ideas of a mere few eccentrics? We are not unique! Our thoughts and actions are fabricated by other people and always will be. Our thoughts are not ours, many before us came up with the same thoughts and ideas and documented them and then you came along fed off the fabrication and incorporated it into supposedly your creation. And you are oblivious to the fact that no matter what, you are a servant to the society and the government. You still pay taxes, go to school, work for money and use media which is strongly influenced by the Government.

So please save the philosophy and lets get practical, how do you suggest we gain such enlightenment that you so highly speak of? The reality is that you probably don’t even know how, because if it did occur you wouldn’t be sitting comfortably in your home and foruming. Since the guy next door might be very angry that you posses a lot more than he does, and being that there is no govmnt to enforce any rules, he will break down your door and deplete your humble home of any valuables. Nice and simple, if the guy next door feels a little horny he can practically rape any little girl he pleases, hey why not no government to punish him! Sounds brilliant mouse.

[anileve]

Ever wish you had any idea what you're talking about? How many places in Europe have you been i'm curious? I would guess 0.
If you ever acualy go someplace you will be annoyed to find out American culture is everywhere. Especialy in Western Europe and Japan. McDonalds is everywhere, and especialy american movies. Everyone knows a little bit of english. And I've never been treated rudely, not even in France.

Try to keep things in persepctive, instead of perpetuating myths you've heard on TV.

Wow you are quite impressive at making such educated guesses. I hope you abandoned your internship at Sister Cleos shop of lies, before you went broke. Actually my little feisty one, it may not be much but give me a chance, let’s see:

Armenia, Georgia, Russia, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Spain. I admit not much of a list but a little here and there. I would say 2 is better than 0, huh? But you need to stop and scratch your little behind and realize that one doesn’t have to travel to other countries, but merely talk to people, if you listen you might learn something.

[Anonymouse]

And how do you propose we enforce your brilliant ideology? Are you going to educate the entire population of planet earth on how to be independent and get involved into economics? And pay very close attention to the politics while they are trying to survive day by day from the attacks of their vicious neighbors who would like to have them for lunch since it was discovered that human flesh is sacred if consumed, and there is no government to interfere and offer protection?.

I do believe you can produce better quality than this. Why would a neighbor want to attack you? Did you steal his retainer? I mean neighbors attack neighbors now. It's going to happen whether or not you have a government. Anyway, listen here. I believe I raised this issue before. If you pay for something, whether it's a car, a chair, whatever it is, it is your property. Technically speaking, you can do whatever you want with your property as long as it doesn't interfere with the property of your neighbor. When you start to tread on his or her grounds and tell them what to do with their property, then you have politics. That is the way it goes, I cannot change it. And if you can't deal with this on its face value you are trying too hard to believe. I know it's hard for us to question our thinking, especially when we've been conditioned to do so since birth, from every orifice of communication. This is the basics of economics and the market place, where people go to do business and cooperate with one another for their self seeking ends. The world operated on this basis for thousands of years on the barter system, and continues to do so now under the free market system, this is still so. The only difference is you have government trying to meddle in.

Anon you keep pointing out the flaws in Government but never mention the benefits of anarchy and how would it be applied?.

I don't know why you are saying "anarchy" because I specifically stated I am not talking about anarchy nor communism and in fact this is something quite different. I don't know if that was either desperate or intentional, however get it right. The benefits? You get to make your own decisions and you get to be a self directed individual. I don't know why you are asking me all these questions and how to "apply" my "ideology" to the masses. Notice you are speaking strictly in political form how politicians think. Usually when I debate with people about this very same topic, they always get frustrated, throw out these questions at me, tell me I know nothing, as if to seek some guidance from an authority. Your questions, along with the ones flames has asked, are in essence reflective of the need to be guided by authority. When ones view crumbles we are so used to, and trained to think in terms of seeking guidance that we essentially ask such questions. I don't know what the future is, nor what a government lacking society is, but I do know that change begins with individuals. Until we change we cannot know the future. You are asking me to make predicitions, and thinking just like a government would think. But chaos theory doesn't depend on this. Remember, the past is not necessarily the determinent of what the future will be.

Is it because you are really a slave to human conditioning and one among many who likes to appear rebellious, unique and independent, yet influenced by some ideas of a mere few eccentrics?.

Oh hardly my dear. In fact I never said anything about being unique, but now that you did, I'm glad you broght it up because it has everything to do with why political systems exist. All political systems are based on collectivism and mass thinking, where you lose your individualism and uniqueness. In fact I do think that yes we are all unique as individuals. Each individual is unique and no two people are alike. That is individualism. You don't have to like it. Politics, government, political systems, institutions, are all based on collectiveness and mass mindedness. It stifles individualism.

We are not unique! .

I disagree and thousands of years of recorded history prove my point. Like I said, you don't have to like it.

Our thoughts and actions are fabricated by other people and always will be. Our thoughts are not ours, many before us came up with the same thoughts and ideas and documented them and then you came along fed off the fabrication and incorporated it into supposedly your creation.

Yes you are right, we are all influenced by one another in our thoughts, but actions are only attributed to individuals. The thought must have begun somewhere and it began with an individual, and the actions reflect individuals.

And you are oblivious to the fact that no matter what, you are a servant to the society and the government. You still pay taxes, go to school, work for money and use media which is strongly influenced by the Government. .

I never denied this. But I do not support the system, and how I do that is by not voting. While what you just said doesn't validate the need for a government, nor how it provides safety, you are only confirming what I have been saying, that the government subjugates us, like a slave, only with the illusion that we "vote", and it uses violence and coercive means to get to that end there is nothing philosophical about this, its simply reality. But how does this happen? By our willingness to submit to it in our thinking. You just proved that if I don't pay my taxes I will be taken away by Big Brother, or forced to pay up. As far as your reference to the media, you are just confirming all that I have been saying, that it is influenced by the government, that is why we have the FCC, an institution that is comrpised of people NOT elected. The same goes for the Fed Reserve, the IRS, the NSA, FEMA, and every other secretive unelected beaurocratic institution you can find. And no, I don't watch mainstream/state media.

So please save the philosophy and lets get practical, how do you suggest we gain such enlightenment that you so highly speak of? The reality is that you probably don’t even know how, because if it did occur you wouldn’t be sitting comfortably in your home and foruming. Since the guy next door might be very angry that you posses a lot more than he does, and being that there is no govmnt to enforce any rules, he will break down your door and deplete your humble home of any valuables. .

Okay. Like I said. You are asking me, as if almost seeking for some sort of authority from a government figure and you have been trained to think that way. We are so used to having problems and the government coming out and saying "we have the solution". I do not know the future nor the solutions, but I know that if we as individuals change our way of thinking, we will eventually find a way. I only have a solution now for our thinking. The rest we build as we build history. I gave examples of how the free market system operates. Spain was another one of my examples. I encourage you to read into the people who came out of the Austrian school of economics such as Hayek. Your questions are only reflective of you seeking answers because that is how a politicized society has trained you to think. When something is wrong the government will spend more money to fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. When a space shuttle blows the government will spend more money to fix the problem again. When there is a school shooting the government will spend more money for "security" to fix the problem so it won't happen again. Do you see where this is going? It doesn't eliminate anything.

And if you are saying that without government my neighbor will come and try to steal my property, well that happens right now even WITH A GOVERNMENT! In fact even the government steals property from its own citizens. Do you like me to show evidence to you how our governmnt engaged in bio and chemical warfare on its own populace? What is your point? Remember I am not arguing about an IDEALISM. I am not saying we won't have robbers, thieves, killers. We have them now and the government surely doesn't protect us from it and we will always have bad behaving people, some of then will run for power, such as politicians. And get this, the USA of all the governments, having one of the most powerful governments has one of the highest murder rates in the world. So where is your argument for safety? But obviously there is no perfection and please do not misconstrue my words. In fact the government and politicans do exactly what these individuals do, they lie, cheat, steal, bomb innocent people kill innocents, put sanctions, take bribes, because politicians, just like us are individuals and prone to the same sins. Why are you so supportive of their behavior? Your thinking is exactly reflective of the contradiction I raised.

The government goes around the world, kills and destroys and occupies other peoples' lands. It lies, cheats, and steals from its own people. People vote for these morally depraved individuals. You are now defending their actions while at the same time singling out "neighbors" for "potentially" breaking in my house or something. Why do you criticize individuals for essentially doing the same thing? Why do you fear individuals and not the government? On the contrary it is your masters you should fear more than the neighbors next to you who are subjects to the state like you.

Nice and simple, if the guy next door feels a little horny he can practically rape any little girl he pleases, hey why not no government to punish him! Sounds brilliant mouse.

People still do that. And he will be punished. As I said I believe social order come from the relationship of individuals to one another under the marketplace. All politics is, is telling people via coercive means, on how to live. The only way political systems survive is by division. They divide us into leftists, right wingers, environmentalists, feminists, minorities, race, culture, religion, etc. and the whole idea of how to maintain is by making us believe that if we throw away our individualism, and join and identify with one of these groups, that the government can aid us in our "cause".

Remember, all politics is based on collective thinking, and mass mindedness, but history teaches otherwise. History teaches us that it is only the individual that has the ability to think, to mourn, to laugh, to invent and create and express his soul through art and music. Governments, institutions and political systems have no soul nor spirit, they are lifeless entities that exist becuase of our willingness to sacrifice our individualism to collectivism. Remember political systems have killed around 200, 000,000 people in the 20th century. How do you compare that to how many individuals have killed in their daily liquor story robbery or gang shooting?

We are so comfortable with identifying ourselves as part of a group, that we lose our individualism, and fail to see that all progress, and history stand behind the individual, not the collective. It is our thinking, a bad thinking habit I might add, that has led to all the destruction. The State or political systems do not exist by guns or what have you, but by our willingness to submit to it and our thinking. I believe the psychologists call this projection. We project our fears onto the whole, whom we feel more comfortable with. Transference is what the psychoanalysts referred to it I believe, the transference object would be the government. In any event, it has caused enough destruction, our thinking has given birth to the modern nation state, and every ism that we know, and with this has come a heavy price of millions of lives lost, including the introduction of a destructive force such as the A-Bomb. The government is merely a reflection of our fears, just like the Matrix.

I fear that if our thinking doesn't change, then humanity will indeed destroy itself. But this change of thinking that I am talking about doesn't come from the groups or collective herds or the masses, it starts with the individuals.

[TJ]

government arises naturally. If you think that government is somehting that humans came up with that is not neccesarry you can simply look at the animal world. Look at wolves tigers .... most animal species have their internal governments and they are divided within their species into packs and groups and each pack or group has its leader, the leader chooses migration patterns, when to hunt when to do what, who does what.

By the way if you want to be technical then democracy does not exist. At least on planet earth it doesnt. Democracy would be that at every single decision there would be a big vote and the majority would win. Our system- and the system of most "democracies" -is a republican system , the voters choose their representatives because the majority of voters are uneducated idiots and they need someone who knows what the xxxx he is doing so that it could be for your benefit.

do you like going to the park anonymouse? looking at nice public works and so on. Well if it wasnt for government they probably wouldnt exist. Thats what hte tax system is for. People pay money based on how much they make and the government uses this money for the overall good. If you did not have a government then you and your neighbors wouldnt be able to decide who puts how much money in it for the park. and some neighbors might say they they dont wnat the park and the sanitation and the firefighters and the police but they get to enjoy the benefits nonetheless, evne if they pay or not.

And what about hte judicial system? who the hell pays and appoints judges to punish criminals? who pays for the prison?

Even though you dont want to call your system anarchy it is anarchy. Anarchy means lack of government and thats what you are advocating. Your system is deeply flawed. Its actually not a system. A system function. the thing you are advocating would not work on earth, maybe in another universe where basic laws-which you dont seem to understand- dont apply. stop talking nonsense please and if you dont like government then dont pay your taxes and dont enjoy the parks the roads the police protection the firefighters, pack up your xxxx and go to some far off land where there is no government, somewhere there arent people , because every habitated place inthe world has government. and you somehow want to change millions of years of natural laws with your theories, you are very naive or as someone else stated before you are just trying to be individual. Either way you are annoying with your bullxxxx theories.

[ckBejug]

If you ever acualy go someplace you will be annoyed to find out American culture is everywhere. Especialy in Western Europe and Japan. McDonalds is everywhere, and especialy american movies.

ok so i am still trying to catch up on all the posts in this topic, but before I commented on anything else, I had to say this. Patlajan, no matter how much i disagree with anileve on things that she says sometimes, i have to agree with her on the fact that Americans don't have any kind of culture to speak of really. You proved this yourself when you went off on her and tried to give an example of how American culture is part of life all over the world, and you said.... "McDonalds is everywhere" In all your heated argument the best example of the great American 'culture' you found was mcdonalds!! Who else here is happy that your cultures defining achievement is NOT Mcdonalds? :?

[ckBejug]

individual opinions are not appreciated!!

I found everyone’s responses and arguments against/about anonymouses ideas and opinions quite logical and each one with it's own truths (and certainly each one also had parts that i did and did not agree with). However, I find it hard to understand why you guys had to end most of your posts with a quip or an insult towards mousey.

Case in point:

“you somehow want to change millions of years of natural laws with your theories, you are very naive or as someone else stated before you are just trying to be individual. Either way you are annoying with your bullxxxx theories.”

“his mousy nonsense… He will only post and re post continuosly irregardless if it makes any sense or not.”

I thought we were sharing our opinions here, not being insulted because of them. I guess it's true that people who can't take/understand those among them who are different choose to belittle and insult? I can't say that I have not in my own way slighted someones words (someone who seemed to be shooting off his mouth with no intelligent thoughts coming out) like the last post i wrote to patlajan. However, I didn't insult him really because I did not outright call him an outlandish bullxxxxter, I just came back at him with my opinions, and let him keep his own... Apparently even in an environment of somewhat-to-highly educated people conformity is a must and opinions not accepted by the 'norm' are frowned upon! Sad. It is hard for me to believe that people are individuals (in mind, opinion, thoughts, etc. I mean) when they choose to insult those among them whose words don't exactly follow the outline approved by the mass ‘popular opinion’ . Am I wrong? Or were there more than a few insults thrown around because mouse doesn’t find it necessary to have the same opinion about government as everyone else here does…??

[surferarmo]

I agree with most of what you said, except for the parts I've quoted. Germany's unemployment rate is 10.5% which is very high. And on top of that they have a heavy handed income tax system. Coupled with the overly generous benefits they are given, there is not much incentive to work. And these "students" that recieve this aid have to be german. Good luck collecting benefits if you're from somewhere else.

Also although I don't think the whole tax cuts to stimulate the economy approach is correct, eliminating federal debt completly is not a good idea at all. Most of that debt takes the form of federal bonds, which are the safe stable part of any portfolio.

Actually Germany's unemployment rate is 9.8% which is agreeably high and pretty much everywhere in the world unemployment rate surpasses US's. The only one that comes close is Netherlands 3%, however I have a friend there who claims that is incredibly difficult to find work. So I would say that in economics there is always a margin of error and Census is not 100% accurate.

It is true that in Germany it is very difficult to become a citizen and the benefits are allocated to citizens, however I do know of some people from Armenia that were able to make a very good living and are very happy with their lifestyle. Now in terms of their income tax, like I said that is essential to have an outstanding "maintenance" of your country and it is a sure "Bank" for the states to turn to, sort of like financial deposits that would be applied should the necessity arrive. Without federal tax, states would not have anything to turn to. And although I agree with Anonymouse, I wouldn't completely renounce the system of the government since it has been established, not without flaws, to provide a beneficial system. I just think that there are so many people that try to manipulate the system solely for their own benefit and not for the benefit of the majority. And that is where a lot of countries fail, concentrating mainly on the upper class that is always my fear when this country is concerned. I just always feel that the Republicans armed with many of their other prudish and obscene ideas will drive this country into the ground. I feel like no party should monopolize the government, checks and balances should always be enforced.

Actually (mainly US) banks do go to many countries which have large reserves of natural resources and lend them sums that are beyond the expected value of the resources. Those countries get money happy and agree. When their resources are depleted they get stuck with a huge debt and are forced to repay with interest, so they turn to an illegal form of repayment, such as drugs and other aspects. (As previously mentioned by Anon)

As I see it Bush is slowly establishing an army of republicans in the house which can result in a complete monopoly. And what is really scary is that he's also placing his Republican Judges into the Supreme Court.

It's true that you shouldn't eliminate the entire federal debt, and that my dear is quite impossible on its own, however adding to it is not a good idea as well.

By the way I always found it so peculiar that you won't find many Western European immigrants in the US. Any idea why?

Wow, I have to jump in here. The main issue you bring up is unemployment, everything else is unimportant. Japan has a lower unemployment rate than we do. They are doing pretty damn good actually. Britain and France have very high unemployment, along with Germany. This is because they are social states. You are ignorant of how one works, so I shall explain it.

A socialist society works different from that of communism. There are employers, and business aside from the government, but, unlike capatilism, these businesses are extremely regulated. Should you hire some one to work, and realize they are incapable, the firm is required to pay that person their wages for a quite long amount of time. This provides incentive for firms to NOT higher new labor, which is why the unemployment rate is sooooooo high in these social countries. The upper classes, unlike communism is able to keep their money, but must pay EXTREMELY high taxes in order to account for the salary of the unemployed. Not cool. That is why we have a higher GDP than they do.

Your friends, the Democrats, are trying to create the foundation for a more social state by implementing higher taxes and causing unemployment so people will have to depend on tax paying dollars that are distributed by the government. The Republicans, with their "prudish" ways are fighting to keep the free market in place, so we can all have opportunities for employment and success.

Economy rules a country. If the government has power to distribute money, and you must go to the government to feed you, then it has ultimate control over you. This can only lead to tryanny. This is what the forefathers of the country fought against, and higher taxes and a strong centralized government are the definition of regression. With many private businesses, this is less likely to happen.

[Anonymouse]

government arises naturally. If you think that government is somehting that humans came up with that is not neccesarry you can simply look at the animal world. Look at wolves tigers .... most animal species have their internal governments and they are divided within their species into packs and groups and each pack or group has its leader, the leader chooses migration patterns, when to hunt when to do what, who does what.

By the way if you want to be technical then democracy does not exist. At least on planet earth it doesnt. Democracy would be that at every single decision there would be a big vote and the majority would win. Our system- and the system of most "democracies" -is a republican system , the voters choose their representatives because the majority of voters are uneducated idiots and they need someone who knows what the xxxx he is doing so that it could be for your benefit.

do you like going to the park anonymouse? looking at nice public works and so on. Well if it wasnt for government they probably wouldnt exist. Thats what hte tax system is for. People pay money based on how much they make and the government uses this money for the overall good. If you did not have a government then you and your neighbors wouldnt be able to decide who puts how much money in it for the park. and some neighbors might say they they dont wnat the park and the sanitation and the firefighters and the police but they get to enjoy the benefits nonetheless, evne if they pay or not.

And what about hte judicial system? who the hell pays and appoints judges to punish criminals? who pays for the prison?

Even though you dont want to call your system anarchy it is anarchy. Anarchy means lack of government and thats what you are advocating. Your system is deeply flawed. Its actually not a system. A system function. the thing you are advocating would not work on earth, maybe in another universe where basic laws-which you dont seem to understand- dont apply. stop talking nonsense please and if you dont like government then dont pay your taxes and dont enjoy the parks the roads the police protection the firefighters, pack up your xxxx and go to some far off land where there is no government, somewhere there arent people , because every habitated place inthe world has government. and you somehow want to change millions of years of natural laws with your theories, you are very naive or as someone else stated before you are just trying to be individual. Either way you are annoying with your bullxxxx theories.

Im not talking about the natural relationship between man to man. No one is questioning any of this.

Political systems and nation states came around only during the enlightenment.

When I say "government" I am referring to Government, our government, or any other government that is premised on some form of political system.

If my "theories" are annoying, simply offer decent rebuttals. The mere fact that you post innane statements that make no sense, without having read any history, proves to me you are unworthy of a debate.

Mediocre minds that can't critically think shouldn't waste disk space, nor should I waste time on them. After all youre the same person who wished to committ genocide on the Turks. Your thinking skills are dangerous and shouldn't be trusted. Until you improve your critical thinking abilities I won't take youre posts seriously.

Like I said, if you paid attention you would see that everything we do comes from cooperation whether in the factory or the marketplace and the Austrian school of economics has answered this. Did you bother to read any of my posts? Did you see I mentioned names and books that would help clear the cloud of ignorance in your brain?

[Anonymouse]

Re: individual opinions are not appreciated!!

I found everyone’s responses and arguments against/about anonymouses ideas and opinions quite logical and each one with it's own truths (and certainly each one also had parts that i did and did not agree with). However, I find it hard to understand why you guys had to end most of your posts with a quip or an insult towards mousey.

They end with an insult because desperate minds, after having exhausted all possible resouces and routes out of their critical thinking blunder, resort to insults as that is the last refuge of the pointless.