How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

[hrai]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

lol, wow. Which one?

Alexandros has the picture as his avatar, but then I'm sure that Bell doesn't look precisely like his avatar.

[jgk3]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

One of those Armenians might actually be a member here.

lol, wow. Which one?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

Yes Armenians can go to turkey and climb, we just had a Armenian who climbed to the top speak at our church. However he stated that if you ever wanted to get your visas/permits/etc done, not to go through the embassy, and to go through a kurdish group that that do guides of the mountain. He said it has nothing to do with being Armenian, apparently it doesn't matter what nationality you are, the embassy is just really slow, ad the kurdish group has ways of getting the paperwork done faster. (don't worry, it's legal)

It is also forbidden to take any flags up the mountain - baggage is supposed to be searched to prevent it. This was after some Armenians from Greece climbed the mountain and took a photograph at the top with an Armenian flag. One of those Armenians might actually be a member here.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

Unusually wikipedia's got one right, well partially.
Independence was declared on 28th May 1918, to enable peace negotiations to begin with turkey following the dissolution of the Transcaucasian Federative Republic on 26th May 1918.
The public proclamation of Independence was made only on 30th May 1918 after political factions had agreed upon a provisional coalition government of the new republic.
Therefore, 28th May 1918 is considered to be Independence Day.

Hmmm. Interesting.
So, back to the postcard and that scroll with the 28th May date on it, is it just a symbolic representation or was there a real document dated 28th May? Or was there nothing proclaimed in writing until the 30th?

[hrai]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

May 30th 1918 was the date of the declaration of Armenian independence. (according to Wikipedia anyway)

The figure at the top left is similar to a well-known photo of one of the Armenian generals on horseback, (can't remember which right now, Andranik maybe?). I'm sure everything in the image has some specific meaning.

Unusually wikipedia's got one right, well partially.
Independence was declared on 28th May 1918, to enable peace negotiations to begin with turkey following the dissolution of the Transcaucasian Federative Republic on 26th May 1918.
The public proclamation of Independence was made only on 30th May 1918 after political factions had agreed upon a provisional coalition government of the new republic.
Therefore, 28th May 1918 is considered to be Independence Day.

[ara87]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

Makes sense. Aren't we allowed to climb it now by visiting Turkey though as tourists? It may not be within Armenia, but we can go there no?

Yes Armenians can go to turkey and climb, we just had a Armenian who climbed to the top speak at our church. However he stated that if you ever wanted to get your visas/permits/etc done, not to go through the embassy, and to go through a kurdish group that that do guides of the mountain. He said it has nothing to do with being Armenian, apparently it doesn't matter what nationality you are, the embassy is just really slow, ad the kurdish group has ways of getting the paperwork done faster. (don't worry, it's legal)

[jgk3]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

Makes sense. Aren't we allowed to climb it now by visiting Turkey though as tourists? It may not be within Armenia, but we can go there no?

[Haykakan]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

The sad truth is that by being on the other side of the border, armenians cant make the same attachments to Ararat that their ancesters did. Since you can't go to Ararat and climb it you won't get the feelings associated with that experience.Armenians climbed ararat and they considered the journey as a sort of pilgrimage where they came closer to god and many did it just for the sake of having accomplished a challange.Climbing the mountain was one of the things on the to do list for most armenians who were ambitios or liked adventure.I think bell is trying to say that it was not a national symbol for us before the 19th century and he is saying it becaus there is nothing like lets say the ararat symbol on our conigc today back then to show that it was. The problem with this argument is that it was impossible for armenians to build national symbols while they were being occupied and supressed.You could not have a armenian soccer team with ararat on their jerseys and you could not have a armenian congniac with ararat on it etc...The fact is that turkish occupation of our lands has for a long time robbed our people of many things including the ability to express ourselves openly about the things we cared about.Armenians had all kinds of feelings for that mountain but werent allowed to print poetry or write anything connecting it to their people.I think most in the diaspora think of armenia when they see a picture of ararat and those who have lived in armenia or have visited and seen the mountain will probably have a deeper personal or spiritual connection to it.Since armenia is free now you can find all sorts of connections to ararat in the country even if you still cant climb it.A deeper connection with this mountain is simply one of the many things armenians were forced to disconnect with becaus of turkish opression/massacres/genocide/racism/religious discrimination........

[ArmSurvival]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

Before the modern period, Ararat was more widely known as the resting area of Noah's ark, and thus held more than just a "material" importance to Armenians. Armenians consider themselves descendents of Noah, and thus, Ararat was seen as the place of origin of the Armenian people.

During the resurgence of Armenian nationalism due to hostile, foreign overlords, Ararat, with its central position on the Armenian Highlands and its vertical domination of the surrounding area, naturally took its place as the symbol, or the epitome, of the immovable spirit of the Armenian people and their undying will to be independent on the land of their forefathers.

All symbols are nothing more than images. This fact doesn't reduce its value as a symbol, because symbols are only as good as what they represent to the people who look to those images for one reason or another. Trying to question Ararat's meaning to Armenians is like saying, Beethoven's compositions were not western masterpieces, they were just combinations of sounds... well, no sh*t. But with some basic insight and understanding, they become some of the most beautiful and soulful expressions of the human spirit.

Does Ararat's 'meaning' change because of my geographic distance? The underlying meanings of being our place of origin and the symbol of our nation do not change. The only thing that changes is that I have a yearning to return. This may or may not be shared by other people, but that is of no concern to me.

Ինծի համար աւելի պակաս հոգ մը այն է որ այս օտար կատուն ինչ կը կարծէ մեր ժողովուրդին մասին: Իր անկաց հետաքրքրութիւնը մեր ազգին հետ շատ բարձր կը խոսի իր անձնական մշակոյթին մասին:

[bell-the-cat]

Re: How do Armenian feel about Mount Ararat?

Maybe. The fact that you did see it (several times) and provided the response you did to the question is a striking statement to us Armenians. We just happen to be the subjects who feel a sense of attachment or imagination towards it, and you recognize this as a nationalist sentiment exhibited by Armenians.

I'll admit, I can be suspicious sometimes of how otars regard these things.

I apologize, I don't think I was thinking of your response that is rather similar in content to Haykakan's when I made my criticism earlier.

Thank you, I accept your apology and agree with your encouragement to others to post their own feelings about Ararat and how those feelings might be changed by geographical distance.