Traditional man and country

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

I already have broken it. I think your defeatism on the matter is making it hard to realize how easily it can be done.

I don't think you have.... you have just postponed the inevitable

[jgk3]

Re: A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

"As a result, traditional societies were characteristically non-materialistic, and their greatest cultural works where always oriented towards the divine, from their Cathedrals, to Castles, to paintings, glasswork, literature... Their pilgrimages and crusades (amongst the warriors and not the corrupt clergy sitting in Rome) too where an expression of this possibility for man to die before his death (that is, to rid himself of worldly passions) and live for only God. Divine leadership was a reality for them, this was their Great Force because it was not inspired by egoism"
I gotta say i disagree with this statement. People have been materialistic since money was invented and they were just as materialistic back then as they are now the difference being it was more about how many pigs, goats.. you had vs how big your hdtv is. Most of the crusaders joined to get loot from the conquered lands not to die for god. As usual religion was used to justify a war which was about money and power not god. To find the natural state of humanity uncompromised by greed is probably impossible anymore and sure was hard to find back then to. A native tribe in south america which was discovered and studied in the 90s probably is the best example of true humanity and how we naturally lived long before religion and money in hunting and gathering societies.. This tribe had no concept of possesion and because they did not have posessions they hardly ever fought or argued with each other.Mates were selected by mutual attraction only and no other social rank or order because no ranks or orders exis.After a courtship which would last a few months or however long the couple wished it to last they would split up and eventually meet another partner and do it all over again.This is called serial menogomy and it is the truely HUMAN way of life.It was difficult if not impossible to know who the father of the child was so all childeren of the tribe were treated by men as their own.This was a peacefull, happy and content society untill money was introduced into it after its discovery.The introduction of money and all the xxxx you can buy with it in todays society turned this truely happy and content tribe of people into a much more familiar forms of greedy materialistic beasts like us.Violence jealousy etc soon became common place in a society where they never existed and it all happened very fast right after they discovered money.I dought there are anymore undiscovered tribes and these people were probably the last ones who lived a truelly HUMAN lifestyle.

You're right that materialism has always existed in humans whenever they weren't busy fighting for survival or in deep meditation or prayer. Obviously, we would not have had so many records of priests, theologians, sages, etc... stressing over and over to those who wished to live a pure life in the graces of God/Tao, etc... that they had to give up their desires and self-will, that they would find contentment with this renunciation.

There have always been sinners in these non-materialistic societies, I'm not arguing that there wasn't. What I'm saying is that the fabric of their societies recognized and discriminated between sin, loyalty, divinity, materialism, and so forth, and they took great pains to express this discrimination in their cultural works.

As for the crusades... Why did the Frankish Crusaders hold Jerusalem for over 80 years, and why did they die trying to keep it? Sure crusaders went in for loot, and their kings and clerical leaders for political power, but it is shortsighted to deny that there was anything spiritual about this endeavor by a united, Christian Roman Empire clashing with Islam for Jerusalem. Manipulated or not by their respective leaders, the "Kingdom of Heaven" on Earth was seen as a reality to the men who fought and died for it, sacrificing one's life in war for what the soldier's entire civilization stood on/was inspired by: God. And it was a voluntary commitment of these armies to rally together for this fight, it was a choice they made, a choice that cannot be understood easily if we try to compare these soldiers to those in WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, etc... because modern armies are composed of mercenary soldiers who in general, fear death and do not see a divine purpose in their warfare.

[KanadaHye]

Re: A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

As for the crusades... Why did the Frankish Crusaders hold Jerusalem for over 80 years, and why did they die trying to keep it? Sure crusaders went in for loot, and their kings and clerical leaders for political power, but it is shortsighted to deny that there was anything spiritual about this endeavor by a united, Christian Roman Empire clashing with Islam for Jerusalem. Manipulative or not by their respective leaders, the "Kingdom of Heaven" on Earth was a reality to the men who fought and died for it, the victory was sacrificing one's life in war for what the soldier's entire civilization stood on/was inspired by: God. And it was a voluntary commitment of these armies to rally together for this fight, it was a choice they made, a choice that cannot be understood by modern terms, where all armies are composed of mercenary soldiers who in general, fear death and do not see a divine purpose in their warfare.

Aren't wars fought to preserve the power of those who are above society, above laws and who repeatedly benefit from the demise of others? There is nothing spiritual about young men and women dying in wars that old men and women dream up. However, spirituality is a product of human suffering. The world needs balance, for every negative event that occurs, a positive event is born.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

Who says? This is animalistic, not the HUMAN way of life! I know a town where everyone believes in God, lives happily, lives by the rules, shares whatever they have with each other, and basically LIVE their lives ... and not like dogs ... like real human beings. That is the real HUMAN way of life. I don't understand where you get your views from, Haykakan. And here's something else ... this town isn't spoiled by money, modern life, or anything else. Why do you think that is, my friend?
You forget humans ARE animals.Dogs don't practice serial monogomy.I am sure in this town you mentioned people have possesions they do not share.Even the concept of marriage is devised from owning a human being.My views stem from years of studying and research plus other life experiences. Serial monogomy is the natural state of human behavior, this is not something i made up but it is a well researched and confirmed fact. If you observe people who are financially secure and independent like lets say movie or rock stars (by no means limited to these groups) you will see that these people actually revert to their basic human instinct and prefer a life of serial monogomy without even knowing the term.Our human nature is not wired to be with one partner forever and the institution of marriage/monogomy is a byproduct of economics. People stayed togather and did not get divorced as much before because they were dependent on each other economicaly.When this dependence is no longer needed (ie. both partners have a good paying job) you see divorce rates skyrocket.Humans are a very adaptable species and unlike some other animals we can change our social habits to better help us survive and prosper.Marriage and monogomy are examples of humans adapting to a cituation where changing some social structure allowed people to better survive and prosper in a new environment created around money and possesions.As you well know monogomy is not the only thing people are or should be capable of.There are many societies even today that practice things other then monogamy.

[Haykakan]

Re: A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

You're right that materialism has always existed in humans whenever they weren't busy fighting for survival or in deep meditation or prayer. Obviously, we would not have had so many records of priests, theologians, sages, etc... stressing over and over to those who wished to live a pure life in the graces of God/Tao, etc... that they had to give up their desires and self-will, that they would find contentment with this renunciation.

There have always been sinners in these non-materialistic societies, I'm not arguing that there wasn't. What I'm saying is that the fabric of their societies recognized and discriminated between sin, loyalty, divinity, materialism, and so forth, and they took great pains to express this discrimination in their cultural works.

As for the crusades... Why did the Frankish Crusaders hold Jerusalem for over 80 years, and why did they die trying to keep it? Sure crusaders went in for loot, and their kings and clerical leaders for political power, but it is shortsighted to deny that there was anything spiritual about this endeavor by a united, Christian Roman Empire clashing with Islam for Jerusalem. Manipulated or not by their respective leaders, the "Kingdom of Heaven" on Earth was seen as a reality to the men who fought and died for it, sacrificing one's life in war for what the soldier's entire civilization stood on/was inspired by: God. And it was a voluntary commitment of these armies to rally together for this fight, it was a choice they made, a choice that cannot be understood easily if we try to compare these soldiers to those in WWII, Vietnam, Iraq, etc... because modern armies are composed of mercenary soldiers who in general, fear death and do not see a divine purpose in their warfare.

People today look at the past like it was some romantic period where people were somehow better or more reichest then they are today and this is easy to do because we read history books and the people who write history books arent going to tell you all the bad things especially the ones that can taint their own beliefes society or selves.The truth is people today are more "moral" then they were any other time in history, things like political correctness are very new consepts which never existed before.Heaven on earth is a great example of exactly why the "holly" warriors were so motivated, the commanders were promised great estates in the holly lands should they win and the soldiers to any and all loot they could take from anyone.The last days of the crusaders in jeruselem are particularly telling, instead of dying for the "glory of god" and protecting the holly land till their last breath they decided to plea for safe passage and surrendered the city and it was thanks to the magnanimus arab general that they got their wish.The actions of the crusaders were hardly holly or moral. They raped and pilladged everything in sight plus killed unarmed muslims and xxxs just for the hell of it.It is easy to look at things the way most people born into a christian,muslim or xxxish society see them but the truth is that to make objective desicions you always have to dig deeper and sometimes rethink what you were taught to believe.BTW the soldiers of ww2 and vietnam were drafted not mecinaries and iraq was hardly a war it was more like a hostile takeover over a helpless country to loot it and control the region.I really admire your desire to learn and read jgk3, it has made you a more interesting person to talk to but as is the case with most people you have romantacised the past.People have not changed much in the short span of written human history and we are no worst and not much better then our predesessors.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

You forget humans ARE animals.Dogs don't practice serial monogomy.I am sure in this town you mentioned people have possesions they do not share.Even the concept of marriage is devised from owning a human being.My views stem from years of studying and research plus other life experiences. Serial monogomy is the natural state of human behavior, this is not something i made up but it is a well researched and confirmed fact. If you observe people who are financially secure and independent like lets say movie or rock stars (by no means limited to these groups) you will see that these people actually revert to their basic human instinct and prefer a life of serial monogomy without even knowing the term.Our human nature is not wired to be with one partner forever and the institution of marriage/monogomy is a byproduct of economics. People stayed togather and did not get divorced as much before because they were dependent on each other economicaly.When this dependence is no longer needed (ie. both partners have a good paying job) you see divorce rates skyrocket.Humans are a very adaptable species and unlike some other animals we can change our social habits to better help us survive and prosper.Marriage and monogomy are examples of humans adapting to a cituation where changing some social structure allowed people to better survive and prosper in a new environment created around money and possesions.As you well know monogomy is not the only thing people are or should be capable of.There are many societies even today that practice things other then monogamy.

Just because you were raised by wolves doesn't mean I was.... if you think you're an animal then you'll make a nice pet for somebody who thinks higher of themselves.

[jgk3]

Re: A Treasury of Traditional Wisdom

There is nothing spiritual about young men and women dying in wars that old men and women dream up. However, spirituality is a product of human suffering. The world needs balance, for every negative event that occurs, a positive event is born.

War, in its more technologically/logistically primitive yet metaphysically inspired and rich sense, was traditionally about the initiated in a society to show through bearing of arms and risking their own lives against the enemy, their devotion to their tribe. This is why warriors have been so decorated, why cults of honour have been made for them and why they have received reverence by their folk men and women.

I agree that it is hard to see anything spiritual about modern wars, or wars that are fought over commercial reasons that satisfy the needs of oligarchs. By contrast, it is not so hard to see the spirituality of war with the Armenian fedayeen, who fight for the survival of their people. I like to discriminate between wars according to this dichotomy, weighing the different elements that are the cause and reason for the war. By doing this, you will avoid the inanity of over-generalizations like war=bad, or war=enterprise of the greedy.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

Yes, and polygamy is also tied to social structure and economics. And your point is? I don't see animals making laws, imprisoning other animals, enslaving other animals..... yet most animals do a better job of protecting their offspring than humans.

Polygamy like monogamy is a artificial state for humans.Serial monogamy is not polygimy.My point is that neither polygamy nor monogamy are truely "human" conditions but are the results of social and economic structures. Many animals have laws, imprison and enslave other animals.Animals do not do a better job at protacting their offsprings then humans, just chekout the offspring mortality rates for any animal then compare them to human child mortality rates, it is not even anywhere near close.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

Just because you were raised by wolves doesn't mean I was.... if you think you're an animal then you'll make a nice pet for somebody who thinks higher of themselves.

So much for my consious effort of trying not to criticise you when answering your questions or comments.If you do not have anything of substance to say then please don't say it.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Polygamy like monogamy is a artificial state for humans.Serial monogamy is not polygimy.My point is that neither polygamy nor monogamy are truely "human" conditions but are the results of social and economic structures. Many animals have laws, imprison and enslave other animals.Animals do not do a better job at protacting their offsprings then humans, just chekout the offspring mortality rates for any animal then compare them to human child mortality rates, it is not even anywhere near close.

I suggest you read this http://reason.com/news/show/28346.html