Your thoughts on God and religion

[loseyourname]

All right, hotshot. Show us some of your logical analysis. For now, your words ring awfully hollow.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Yep - you misunderstood me completely.

Apparently you haven't figured out that science in itself is limited and cannot answer questions beyond the material world, dealing with the metaphysical. Like I said before, it is only an assumption that all knowledge comes from science, in our third dimension.

Originally posted by loseyourname I don't recall making an argument against the belief in God, but okay. I recall saying, but perhaps I am wrong, that if you have had a spiritual experience that is enough to confirm the existence of an intelligent creator to the universe, so be it. I have not, and there exists no other reason for belief, and so I don't believe. This has nothing to do with your belief.

I don't really see any way that you could know for certain, but neither do I feel any particular need for certainty. Hell, if you had certainty, where would the faith come in?

By the way, C.S. Lewis is an idiot, or was anyway. The fact that he had a longing for a spiritual connection with something greater than himself, and even the fact that you do, does not mean that such a longing is inborn in every human being. Furthermore, as that need could easily be satisfied by the illusion of such a connection, it in no way necessitates the existence of any god even to fulfill Lewis' own requisite satisfaction requirement. In addition to that, he is wrong that every desire needs to have something in the universe that exists to satisfy it.
He never did anything to even begin to provide support for that assertion. The most basic of all desires to any living creature is the desire to stay alive, and yet the one thing we all must do is die.

So C.S. Lewish was an idiot because why? Because he believed in God? That is funny to me. Someones idiocy is now based on whether or not they believe in God, and since their description of their belief contradicts yours, they MUST be an idiot. It seems to me from your posts and Arvestakeds posts that you two have some issues regarding this topic, and it isn't taken lightly. Of course my natural reaction is that there is something in your personal lives, but it would be a guess.

As far as the desire which Lewish describes, I personally believe that we all have it, and I myself can point to my days as an atheist/agnostic when I didn't believe in God. That era was one in which the world revolved around me. How many times I remember stating that God is nothing more than a fictional character made up by us to fellow friends and family, etc., and how many times in my mind did I wish for myself to be wrong.

In any event, it's based on experience. Freuds life was one of fear and he feared life, hence he didn't believe in God. Lewish himself was an atheist influenced by Freud, who later experienced a spiritual change. Lewish before his conversion, was suffering from a pessimistic world view, that life is dirty and brutal and there is no God, he had relationship problems, not too many friends, even Freud went on to have problems with his friends such as Adler, and Jung, etc. Lewis' life changed when he had that spiritual awakening, he became more friendly, in general he took a different outlook on life, and his friends increased, and he described a certain "joy". Now this isn't meant to speak for everyone, as you eloquently pointed out that indeed, you yourself have not had that "spiritual moment" but neither had I. It's mostly conditionining. Self conditioning. To look around myself and observe the precision and order and beauty and the fact that I have free will, I cannot but attribute that to a higher power. "Why does evil exist?" you ask. In order for man to have free will, he has the ability to do good and also to do evil.

*hats off*

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Apparently you haven't figured out that science in itself is limited and cannot answer questions beyond the material world, dealing with the metaphysical. Like I said before, it is only an assumption that all knowledge comes from science, in our third dimension.

Apparently you're paying no attention to what I'm actually saying. go back and read again.

Originally posted by Mousy So C.S. Lewish was an idiot because why? Because he believed in God?

No - he was an idiot because he made an unfounded assumption and passed it off as proven fact. Further more, you're being at least slightly foolish for citing it as if it's gospel.

Originally posted by Mousy As far as the desire which Lewish describes, I personally believe that we all have it, and I myself can point to my days as an atheist/agnostic when I didn't believe in God.

As happy as I am to hear your life story, I am just as sad to have to point out that it doesn't constitute an argument for or against the existence of either God or the spoken of desire.

Originally posted by Mousy In any event, it's based on experience. Freuds life was one of fear and he feared life, hence he didn't believe in God. Lewish himself was an atheist influenced by Freud, who later experienced a spiritual change. Lewish before his conversion, was suffering from a pessimistic world view, that life is dirty and brutal and there is no God, he had relationship problems, not too many friends, even Freud went on to have problems with his friends such as Adler, and Jung, etc. Lewis' life changed when he had that spiritual awakening, he became more friendly, in general he took a different outlook on life, and his friends increased, and he described a certain "joy". Now this isn't meant to speak for everyone, as you eloquently pointed out that indeed, you yourself have not had that "spiritual moment" but neither had I. It's mostly conditionining. Self conditioning. To look around myself and observe the precision and order and beauty and the fact that I have free will, I cannot but attribute that to a higher power. "Why does evil exist?" you ask. In order for man to have free will, he has the ability to do good and also to do evil.

I greatly admire your ability to write an entire paragraph and not get anywhere near the point until the final two sentences. You still have yet to present an argument of any sort. All you have is the fact that you believe in God, and the assumed fact that everyone wants to. Please try a little harder, because I know you have more than this.

[Anonymouse]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by loseyourname [B]Apparently you're paying no attention to what I'm actually saying. go back and read again.

Originally posted by loseyourname No - he was an idiot because he made an unfounded assumption and passed it off as proven fact. Further more, you're being at least slightly foolish for citing it as if it's gospel.

That was his personal opinion, much like I made a reference to it in my personal experience. What part of that is gospel? You don't have to agree, no one said you should, in fact if you agreed this discussion would blow.

Originally posted by loseyourname As happy as I am to hear your life story, I am just as sad to have to point out that it doesn't constitute an argument for or against the existence of either God or the spoken of desire.

Once again, whether or not you understood this or not, I don't care, and neither did I use it as an argument for the existence of God for you, but rather for me. Of course it's more personal than anything, which I don't think you understand this.

Originally posted by loseyourname I greatly admire your ability to write an entire paragraph and not get anywhere near the point until the final two sentences. You still have yet to present an argument of any sort. All you have is the fact that you believe in God, and the assumed fact that everyone wants to. Please try a little harder, because I know you have more than this.

I love it how when in a discussion about God, those that don't believe in God always respond with the "You have yet to present any argument". I am not presenting an argument, I am simply stating my personal world view. I never assumed everyone wants to believe in God, I simply stated that we all have certain desires, spiritual desires, to sooth the soul, since it is simply what makes us human. I do not see humans as dry, decaying animal bodies without a soul and spirit. I cannot reduce humanity to emotionless spiritless entities simply existing like animals, my personal experience speaks otherwise. When you dream, you laff, you cry, these are to me, evidence for the soul. Now whether or not you believe in this is your choice, like I said, this is MY OPINION, my belief. What part of that don't you understand? So do you also deny that such a thing as a "soul" exists?

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Mousy Once again, whether or not you understood this or not, I don't care, and neither did I use it as an argument for the existence of God for you, but rather for me. Of course it's more personal than anything, which I don't think you understand this.

God either exists or not, pal. He doesn't exist for you and not for me.

Originally posted by Mousy I love it how when in a discussion about God, those that don't believe in God always respond with the "You have yet to present any argument". I am not presenting an argument, I am simply stating my personal world view. I never assumed everyone wants to believe in God, I simply stated that we all have certain desires, spiritual desires, to sooth the soul, since it is simply what makes us human. I do not see humans as dry, decaying animal bodies without a soul and spirit. When you dream, you laff, you cry, these are to me, evidence for the soul. Now whether or not you believe in this is your choice, like I said, this is MY OPINION, my belief. What part of that don't you understand? So do you also deny that such a thing as a "soul" exists.

Stating that we all have certain desires is an unfounded assumption, unless you have managed to ask all of us. I know for damn sure that you didn't ask me. What exactly is soothing the soul, anyway? Perhaps you should think about this a tad bit more. I don't deny that a soul exists, I only deny that it's possible to know whether or not a soul exists. If all you have is personal belief, that's all fine and dandy, but this world aint gonna get far if everybody bases their belief system on personal conviction.

You disappoint me. I really did think you had more.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname God either exists or not, pal. He doesn't exist for you and not for me.

Well, here is the problem. The "evidence" you ask for is in regards to a material world. I cannot offer that evidence but offer faith. God exists in my opinion, that is what I meant, not just for me. Perhaps I didn't clarify. You won't see that since you already have a preconceived opinion on the matter.

Originally posted by loseyourname Stating that we all have certain desires is an unfounded assumption, unless you have managed to ask all of us. I know for damn sure that you didn't ask me. What exactly is soothing the soul, anyway? Perhaps you should think about this a tad bit more. I don't deny that a soul exists, I only deny that it's possible to know whether or not a soul exists. If all you have is personal belief, that's all fine and dandy, but this world aint gonna get far if everybody bases their belief system on personal conviction.


You disappoint me. I really did think you had more.

You don't deny that the soul exists, yet at the same time you deny that nothing soothes the soul the and it has no desires? If our material body has desires, so does our spiritual self. That makes no sense to look at it otherwise. Of course if you admit that the soul exists, then it logically follows that there are desires which the soul has, desires that transcend the material world and the animal body of the human, such as to love, to laff, to listen to music and have it resonate in your soul and uplift you, or look at art, or dream both in your sleep, and about time space and infinity. Such are the wonders of the soul, the spiritual existence. It wasn't until Descartes that we began to accept the seperation of mind and body. Then you go on to place scientific criteria on the existence of the soul, once again, ignoring youre intuition and your self and the fact that you feel such a thing in you.

As far as dissappointing you, I really don't care and I don't have anymore than what I have.

[Sirumemkez20]

I try to go to church often, I know that when I pray God is always there for me.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Well, here is the problem. The "evidence" you ask for is in regards to a material world.

Read again. I didn't ask for material evidence. I just asked for an argument.

Originally posted by Mousy You don't deny that the soul exists, yet at the same time you deny that nothing soothes the soul the sould has no desires?

Wrong again. I didn't say nothing soothes the soul. I only asked you to clarify what you meant by soothing a soul.

Originally posted by Mousy It logically follows that there are desires which the soul has, desires that transcend the material animal body of the human, such as to love, to laff, to listen to music and have it resonate in your soul, or look at art, or dream both in your sleep, and about time space and infinity. Such are the wonders of the soul, the spiritual existence. It wasn't until Descartes that we began to accept the seperation of mind and body. Then you go on to place scientific criteria on the existence of the soul, once again, ignoring youre intuition and your self and the fact that you feel such a thing in you.

If you can logically show that a soul exists, then you can start thinking about logically showing that a soul has desires. Until then, you have less than hearsay - calling it logical is absurd, completely without meaning. I could go on here about psychobiology, but I'm no expert, and anything I could say you would already know if you bothered to read something more current than Freud and Descartes.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Read again. I didn't ask for material evidence. I just asked for an argument.

The argument is that God has created the world that we know, the third dimension and all the dimension, and that even if extra-terrestrial organisms had something to do with life on earth ( plenty of evidence for this theory as well, ala Zechariah Sitchin ), that the force and intelligence known as God is ultimately responsible for their existence, for something cannot come out of nothing, and this intelligence and force must have been there to create it. Even in our daily lives we "create" babies, we don't evolve them. When we speak of an invention or a piece of art, we refer to it as "creation". It seems consonant with the idea that one creates out of his own image. One cannot scientifically prove the existence of God, because that worldview assumes that all knowledge comes only through the scientific method, which only deals with the material world. Freud himself recognized that logically one cannot prove a negative, one cannot prove that God does not exist. The only real defense of his worldview, and yours, is to discredit its alternative. Thus, Freud overtook a systematic and sustained attack on the spiritual world view. One of the most striking things about non-believers, such as Freud, is that if indeed God did not exist, why was there a need to constantly discredit and spend a whole lifetime discrediting and contemplating such a thing, if indeed God is non-existent? (If you really are confident in that, then you shouldn't even be in this thread, but you are, and you are seeking evidence or an argument from me of this spiritual worldview, which to me indicates a desire, of course which you will deny and go on to accuse me of preaching gospel, mind you I'm not really into religions nor involved Church going. ) Freud spent his entire life doing just that. One can diagnose him suffering from his own delusional neursosis and one can make an argument that his constant need to discredit God stems from a desire to be proven wrong and that he wishes God existed. Indeed, his letters bear evidence of his wish to believe in God, not his professional works. It gives a whole knew meaning to Agent Moulder's UFO poster of "I Want To Believe".

Originally posted by loseyourname Wrong again. I didn't say nothing soothes the soul. I only asked you to clarify what you meant by soothing a soul.

Spiritual transcendence is what I meant by soothing the soul. Perhaps this is what drives humans to the ends that they go, gives them the creative potential, to create and invent and leave a mark on this material world using and pouring their heart and soul in their work, whether it is art or literature. Eventually the material world is limited for us humans, whether we like it or not. We can only do so much, whether it is having a nice cush job with a 6 digit income, a nice house with pool, a private jet, nice cars, but those same people that have those earthly material luxuries have their own problems, for they themselves experience a lack of spiritual exaltation, for they find themselves in possessions of greath wealth, yet not spiritually satisfied, and in drug use. After all why do people use drugs? Why do we fail to grasp the underlying symbolism for drugs, how alcohol with another name is spirit or "spirt", how cocaine is referred to as "angel dust", drugs like "ecstacy" or "crystal meth" or "paradise". I have always wonder why we never take the time to understand what drives people to drug use. We spend millions condemning and criminalizing those people isntead of asking why so many don't find spiritual expression in their institutionally centered lives of the material world and look for it in drugs for that one time "high"? Hence the expression "Money doesn't buy happiness" or the famous Beatles song, "Money Can't Buy Me Love".

I firmly believe, like Lewis, and others of the spiritual persuasion, that we as a humanity have a need to connect with the rest of the universe in a way that is meaningful to our innermost sense of who we are in a cosmic consciousness. And lets assume for the sake of argument that you define your daily pursuits as being more "practical" than "spiritual" as evidence of the material world, those poeple should ask themselves why it is that they pursue wealth, fame, power, or status in their undertakings. Why? So that they might discover that the satisfaction of such ends would allow them to transcend their more limited sense of self, perhaps even to extend their name and accomplishments far beyond their own lifetimes.

These needs and desires are what is referred to as "cosmic consciousness" in the metaphysical sense. I will go further and suggest that this need for a sense of integrated wholeness underlies pretty much all of what we do in life from our desire to learn science, literature, philsoophy, invent, art, music, procreation, nature, and the desire to make the world a better place, all derive from this spiritual need. We all have answers to what makes the world a better place, and this is reflective in our discussions, we all wish to leave some mark even after our lives. Whether one is a believer, or an agnostic, or an atheist we all desire distinction and we all desire a need to know the answers to the questions that are asked by both students of the scientific and spiritual persuasions, namely how did we get here and where is our eventual destination, and what are the rules?

[EvrLstngDaze]

wow, I'm impressed with the conversation in here