Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

Free Will

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    It just occured to me, that in the SIMS game, there's an option in which can turn off the SIMS free will as you see fit. Having free will on will allow your SIMS to move around and do actions that are necessary for its well being (i.e. go to the bathroom, sleep, eat). This has always boggled me as a creepy thing. I don't know why. I mean, just the idea of one click, *bing*, no free will.
    Achkerov kute.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

      Originally posted by loseyourname I already outlined how we can know. Until then, all we can do is speculate. It's good mental exercise, and I enjoy it. That's why I'm here. Plus, I knew I'd get into it with you. I like getting into it with you.
      I don't speculate, I have faith.
      Achkerov kute.

      Comment


      • #33
        If you are correct in your assertion that we are free, and that our freedom is God-given, presumably he can take it away at any minute. So live in fear.
        Sweet is the lore which nature brings; our meddling intellect misshapes the beauteous forms of things: we murder to dissect.

        -William Wordsworth

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by loseyourname If you are correct in your assertion that we are free, and that our freedom is God-given, presumably he can take it away at any minute. So live in fear.
          Indeed, you can make the argument that God can choose to take away free will if God wants to. So God is essentially choosing. If man acts against the "will of God", then he must have free will. Otherwise, every act would have to be concurrent with the will of God. If I have free will and God decides that I shall live, but I demonstrate my free will and commit suicide, then God is not actually omnipotent. If God intervenes and prevents me from committing suicide, then I don't actually have free will. Of course, I disagree with the above since I believe God has given us free will and designed our world, but doesn't decide it. It knows the future, but doesn't decide it.
          Achkerov kute.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Anonymouse It knows the future, but doesn't decide it.
            If God knows the future, then you are not free, plain and simple. What you will do is already known and you have no choice but to do it. Omniscience is not compatible with free will. I hope to you know who you're not actually advocating a Christian God here. Don't make me break out my Michael Martin and turn to the section on "divine incoherence."
            Sweet is the lore which nature brings; our meddling intellect misshapes the beauteous forms of things: we murder to dissect.

            -William Wordsworth

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

              Originally posted by Anonymouse I don't speculate, I have faith.
              Faith is not knowledge. Anything less is speculation. You have beliefs; I have ideas that I know damn well may very well be nothing more. That is the difference between you and I. That and I'm better looking.
              Sweet is the lore which nature brings; our meddling intellect misshapes the beauteous forms of things: we murder to dissect.

              -William Wordsworth

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by loseyourname If God knows the future, then you are not free, plain and simple. What you will do is already known and you have no choice but to do it. Omniscience is not compatible with free will. I hope to you know who you're not actually advocating a Christian God here. Don't make me break out my Michael Martin and turn to the section on "divine incoherence."
                For the sake of argument, God is outside of the realm of time and space, of good and evil ( a Hindu slant ). I don't see how you're point is valid, for knowing the future is one thing, yet he cannot exercise any decision over it. It is done by us. We have choices which we make, in the greater context of the system, which me and CkBejuh agreed upon. You don't have to like it, but this is my belief and I have faith in this. Because God knows the future, doesn't mean we know, therefore we make choices, yet the supernatural creator does know. There is no "incoherence" but what you want to make.
                Achkerov kute.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

                  Originally posted by loseyourname Faith is not knowledge. Anything less is speculation. You have beliefs; I have ideas that I know damn well may very well be nothing more. That is the difference between you and I. That and I'm better looking.
                  Now now, no need to hate the messenger for a little boy lost.

                  That my faith is not your knowledge, is again an assumption of what you choose to believe. The faith I have is based on spiritual experiences, which cannot be interpreted into the "knowledge" that pertains to this material world which you are adamant on arguing for, and you even claimed you have not experienced this, so what ones spiritual experience is to them, to me is testament of a guiding maxim, of a spiritual existence and knowledge, namely there is a God. Now, you are attempting to make the ethereal experience of someone, conform to your standards of materialism or of what things ought to be.
                  Achkerov kute.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    author unknown



                    The Mandelbrot Set is derived through a mathematical algorithm. Using software software you can choose four points within the image and blow that up so you can zoom into the Mandelbrot. If you do this you will discover shapes which mimic things you see in nature. There are those who believe that the Mandelbrot Set (fractal geometry) is a representation of random CHAOS. How can a mathematical algorithm be random? The conclusion of ANY mathematical algorithm can only be discovered. Because of this, mathematics is a medium which is predetermined.

                    X, y and z are mentioned quite a bit within computer graphics. Those three letters represent the three plains within a 3d (three dimensional) world. Within a 3d world a floating point coordinate system is used for the placement of objects. The center of the world is coordinate 0,0,0 (x, y, z). To travel within this world all you have to do is alter your coordinates by either incrementing or decrementing the values. An object within the 3d world is comprised of vertices or points. A square or a box for example has eight vertices. It also has 6 sides or "facets". The more detail you want in an object the more vertices and facets it must have.


                    A box in the center of the world.

                    You could add one more letter to "x, y, and z" and call it "d" for dimension. Within the movie, "The Thirteenth Floor" you saw individuals passing from one dimension to another. There first simulation had another running within it. The simulation was also running within a computer system.

                    In the picture above you see a wireframe box with arrows pointing to its center. This center is actually the center of the 3d world (coordinates 0,0,0). The arrows represent the direction of light. When the scene is rendered you will see the sides of facets of the box as color rather than the wireframe. The little triangle to the left of the box is called a "widget". It is a 3d tool used to manipulate the object associated with it, in this case, a box. The above graphic is a capture of Caligari trueSpace 4 window, a computer graphics program that allows you to create virtually anything you want within the computer. The movie, "Toy Story" was made with similar software. Toy Story is an example of dumbed down computer graphics. You can make the world as real as you want. You're only limited by the amount of computing power you have and the quality of the textures you use for the facets. A computer is a device which can do many things. Within the computer is a "CPU" or Central Processing Unit. The CPU has an instruction set which is nothing more than a list of commands, commands which when executed accomplish certain tasks. The instruction set is nothing more than a list of instructions which a CPU (central processing unit) can execute. There are instructions for mathematical calculations such as adding, multiplying, dividing, and subtracting. There are instructions which tell the CPU to read from one memory location and write it back out to another. Anything you wanted the computer to do can be accomplished via the utilization of the instruction set. The CPU only understands 0's and 1's or more technically, low signals and high signals (respectively). The instruction set is comprised of mnemonics. A mnemonic is a single command used in a computer language called, "Assembly Language". A user would write an Assembly Language program using mnemonics and when completed later would assemble the program, converting it into machine code which is zeros and ones or to be even more technical high and low signals. Within your computer you have a motherboard, and a graphics card. The CPU sits on the motherboard and most graphics cards plug into what is called an AGP port. Some machines have the graphics hardware integrated on the motherboard. A graphics card has its own memory. This memory is used to store the image you are seeing right now. There is a computer chip on your graphics card called the RAMDAC. RAMDAC means Random Access Memory Digital to Analog Converter. Its purpose is to read from video memory and convert the digital information to an analog signal so your monitor can display the image which resides in memory. When the image on your monitor changes it means your CPU just executed a command which told it to write to a specific memory location on your video card altering its existing content.



                    I'll bet you're wondering why I have gone into the inner workings of a computer, right? It is important to this argument. A computer cannot lie. It is a logical device which can calculate numbers and determine which is greater then, less then, or equal to. Because of it being a logic device it can never lie. It can however, be programmed to lie. In the world of computer graphics mathematical algorithms are used to calculate the positions of vertices and the color of facets. There are also hidden surface algorithms which determine visibility. Put an object on a table and place a box over that object. Can you see the object? You can't, can you? It is hidden from the box. The way some hidden surface algorithms work is, objects which are farthest away from your eye (the camera) are written to video memory first and the objects closest to you are written last. This insures that the world will be displayed correctly from the cameras (your) perspective. It is interesting to know that everything in Nature can be mimicked with the computer using computer graphics methods and mathematical algorithms.

                    If you followed a recipe precisely 100 times, would each outcome taste the same? It would, wouldn't it? Why? Every atom in the universe obeys a set of laws, the laws of physics. With law comes predeterminability. Everything in the universe is based on mathematics. Mathematics is a medium known to be predetermined. Pick a number, any number. Now pick and add another to it. As you calculate the sum realize what it is you are about to do. You discovered that which was already there, the sum. Like mathematics, invention/creativity works the same way. There is no invention, only the discovery of what was already there. Do you know what else this reveals? Random does not exist in the universe either! Random is unpredictable. We can imagine it but there is no way we can represent it in the universe. Why? Because all matter obeys the laws of physics and if that matter is placed into a scenario such as baking a recipe for example, the outcome will always be the same. If you had weighted dice would the same numbers come up each time you tossed them? Even if those dice were perfectly balanced they would still obey the laws of physics.

                    A computer cannot generate a random number either. Microsoft writes on its website (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...ml/defseed.asp), "seed - An initial value used to generate pseudorandom numbers. For example, the Randomize statement creates a seed number used by the Rnd function to create unique pseudorandom number sequences." I'm certainly glad they are telling the truth in this matter. They said the exact same thing as I just did. The seed is a numerical argument that can range from -32767 to 32768. Within the BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) programming language there are commands you can experiment with. I will briefly explain the Randomize statement, RND function and the TIME$ system variable which can be found within the BASICProgramming language. The Rnd function returns a value less than 1 but greater than or equal to zero.

                    100 Randomize 33 - 100 Randomize val(Right$(TIME$,2))

                    110 Print Int(Rnd * 10) - 110 Print Int(Rnd * 10)

                    Now don't get confused because you may not understand the code in the above two progams. I'll make it perfectly clear for you. With what you learned above you should have realized that these two programs will not have the same output. The only thing that is different between the two programs is the SEED (the mathematical argument to the right of the word "Randomize"). One is STATIC at "33" and the other is DYNAMIC based on the TWO RIGHT MOST characters of the system variable TIME$. TIME$ is a no-argument function that returns a string that contains the time as measured by the 24-hour clock. For example, at 1:45 and 2 seconds P.M., TIME$ = "13:45:02", and at midnight, TIME$ = "00:00:00". If your computer does not have a clock, then TIME$ returns "99:99:99". If the seed was the same (STATIC) each time the computer program was executed the same sequence of numbers would be returned by the Rnd function. Above you see me multiplying Rnd by "10" with the asterisk. Using this method you can tell the computer to return a pseudorandom number from any numerical range you want. If you wanted pseudorandom numbers picked from the range of 50-100, alter line 110 to read, "Print Rnd * 50 + 51". "Rnd * 50" tells the computer to pick a pseudorandom number from 0-49 (50 places). Say the Rnd function returns .5, take .5 and multiply it by 50 then add 51 to that.

                    What are the odds of you running a program the same time every time? Not very high, huh? Therefore you can use the two digits which represent the SECONDS within TIME$ to seed the psuedorandom number generator dynamically. Remember, your choice to run a program or not is based on freewill. So what is freewill based on? Are our lives predestined? No. Statements like, "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it," only proves our lives are based on dynamics. If lack of knowledge will cause repetition for a given circumstance, then obviously, it is a dynamic.


                    Morpheus; "You have to let it all go Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind."

                    In the movie, "The Matrix" Morpheus trains Neo for battle with "AI" or Artificial Intelligence. The Matrix is a neural interactive simulation of earth at the end of the twentieth century. That is the world Neo knew. The laws of physics also applied to this world. In the above two video captures both Neo and Morpheus are in a training program which behaves like The Matrix. Because Morpheus knew the truth he could bend the rules (laws of physics) easily. He jumped from one building to another to show Neo. Before Morpheus brought Neo out of The Matrix Neo was living in a dream world. His mind was being fed stimulae from "AI". All his life's experiences were not real because his world was not real. Later Neo made reference to this on his way to see the Oracle. Morpheus; "What is real? How do you define real? If you are talking about what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain." This is an interesting quote from the movie because it reflects logic and common sense reasoning which was mentioned in the beginning of this article. We are all spiritual beings attached to physical bodies and this universe does not exist. The computer simulation has to recognize three dimensional fractal geometry in order for it to interface with the mind. In "The Matrix" they used a jack in the back of the head as the interface. They inserted a rod into that jack which was connected to a computer. That computer had the capability to connect with The Matrix so Morpheus and his freedom fighters could "jack into" or enter The Matrix.
                    Last edited by Anonymouse; 01-09-2004, 06:39 PM.
                    Achkerov kute.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      In the movie "The Thirteenth Floor" Mr. Hannon Fuller and his colleagues had created a simulation of earth 1937 within a computer. Fuller became aware that the world his simulation was running in wasn't real either. He left a letter with "Ashton" who was a bartender at a members only hotel within the simulation for a man named "Douglas Hall". The letter explained Fuller's discovery. Ashton wasn't supposed to find out that his world wasn't real. Ignoring Mr. Fuller's privacy, Ashton read the letter then became more curious. Ashton got into his car, drove out of town and kept driving. The further away from the city he got the stranger it was. There was no movement, no life. Everything was still and quite. Soon he saw something that scared him "to the depths of his miserable soul". His world was a sham, it wasn't real! He saw the edge of existence where wireframes had no textures (above picture). He did all this because it is what Mr. Fuller said to do in the letter. But the letter wasn't meant for Ashton, remember? It was meant for Fuller's colleague Douglas Hall. Douglas Hall entered or "jacked" into the simulation and asked Ashton if Fuller left a letter or something for him. Ashton said, "No." Ashton lied because he wanted more information about what he had read in the letter and what he saw on his drive. Douglas and Ashton eventually got into a fight over the letter. From what Ashton told Douglas what the letter said Douglas had a good idea as to what he should do next. Douglas exited the 1934 simulation and did what Ashton did. He got into his car and drove out of town and discovered the same. His world was just a simulation. There is much more to the story of course, most of which is not important to this discussion.

                      There is something The Matrix, The Thirteenth Floor and the universe you live in have in common. They do not exist. The fact that logic and common sense reasoning states that you are a spiritual being and are part of a collective consciousness means there is something more beyond death. There are two types of laws in physics. Those we are familiar with and those we are not. When we learn how the ones we are not familiar with work we discover they are predetermined like the ones used in the baking of a recipe and mathematics, A + B = Discovery. If it wasn't this way the universe simulation wouldn't work, PERIOD! You are an empty glass that can be filled with knowledge. Just make sure that the knowledge you absorb is comprised of LOGIC, COMMON SENSE REASONING and fits in with CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE. It is these three RED elements that make up truth.

                      What is judgement? Judgement is simply a conclusion to a scenario. Because of this, the definition of "Judgement" has to coincide with freewill as well. "You get what's coming to you." is a phrase which reflects that. If someone chose to do a crime and got caught then jail time is their judgement. Your judgement does not come from someone else, it comes from you. It has to. Judgement for the human race comes from its collective behavior. The collective behavior of the human race can be controlled by another source as well. Within the world we live our day to day lives being bombarded with advertisements made by companies which tell us we need this, that and the other thing to make our lives complete. When compared, present day earth is much more dangerous to live in then earth of the past. The world isn't a nice place to live because the human race hasn't done anything yet to erraticate the evil that is within. The ones who have molded society into what we see today will soon get what's coming to them. Their Judgement.




                      Achkerov kute.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X