Free Will

[Anonymouse]

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Originally posted by loseyourname Faith is not knowledge. Anything less is speculation. You have beliefs; I have ideas that I know damn well may very well be nothing more. That is the difference between you and I. That and I'm better looking.

Now now, no need to hate the messenger for a little boy lost.

That my faith is not your knowledge, is again an assumption of what you choose to believe. The faith I have is based on spiritual experiences, which cannot be interpreted into the "knowledge" that pertains to this material world which you are adamant on arguing for, and you even claimed you have not experienced this, so what ones spiritual experience is to them, to me is testament of a guiding maxim, of a spiritual existence and knowledge, namely there is a God. Now, you are attempting to make the ethereal experience of someone, conform to your standards of materialism or of what things ought to be.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname If God knows the future, then you are not free, plain and simple. What you will do is already known and you have no choice but to do it. Omniscience is not compatible with free will. I hope to you know who you're not actually advocating a Christian God here. Don't make me break out my Michael Martin and turn to the section on "divine incoherence."

For the sake of argument, God is outside of the realm of time and space, of good and evil ( a Hindu slant ). I don't see how you're point is valid, for knowing the future is one thing, yet he cannot exercise any decision over it. It is done by us. We have choices which we make, in the greater context of the system, which me and CkBejuh agreed upon. You don't have to like it, but this is my belief and I have faith in this. Because God knows the future, doesn't mean we know, therefore we make choices, yet the supernatural creator does know. There is no "incoherence" but what you want to make.

[loseyourname]

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Originally posted by Anonymouse I don't speculate, I have faith.

Faith is not knowledge. Anything less is speculation. You have beliefs; I have ideas that I know damn well may very well be nothing more. That is the difference between you and I. That and I'm better looking.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse It knows the future, but doesn't decide it.

If God knows the future, then you are not free, plain and simple. What you will do is already known and you have no choice but to do it. Omniscience is not compatible with free will. I hope to you know who you're not actually advocating a Christian God here. Don't make me break out my Michael Martin and turn to the section on "divine incoherence."

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname If you are correct in your assertion that we are free, and that our freedom is God-given, presumably he can take it away at any minute. So live in fear.

Indeed, you can make the argument that God can choose to take away free will if God wants to. So God is essentially choosing. If man acts against the "will of God", then he must have free will. Otherwise, every act would have to be concurrent with the will of God. If I have free will and God decides that I shall live, but I demonstrate my free will and commit suicide, then God is not actually omnipotent. If God intervenes and prevents me from committing suicide, then I don't actually have free will. Of course, I disagree with the above since I believe God has given us free will and designed our world, but doesn't decide it. It knows the future, but doesn't decide it.

[loseyourname]

If you are correct in your assertion that we are free, and that our freedom is God-given, presumably he can take it away at any minute. So live in fear.

[Anonymouse]

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Originally posted by loseyourname I already outlined how we can know. Until then, all we can do is speculate. It's good mental exercise, and I enjoy it. That's why I'm here. Plus, I knew I'd get into it with you. I like getting into it with you.

I don't speculate, I have faith.

[Anonymouse]

It just occured to me, that in the SIMS game, there's an option in which can turn off the SIMS free will as you see fit. Having free will on will allow your SIMS to move around and do actions that are necessary for its well being (i.e. go to the bathroom, sleep, eat). This has always boggled me as a creepy thing. I don't know why. I mean, just the idea of one click, *bing*, no free will.

[loseyourname]

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Originally posted by Anonymouse Mind, money, and materialism. The only thing that lasts is the mind. Well if you don't see how we could know, why are you here discussing, if not but for a desire, since you know my position that, yes we can know, and yes we are part of a spiritual collective consciousness, and that, yes, there is life beyond the material world.

I already outlined how we can know. Until then, all we can do is speculate. It's good mental exercise, and I enjoy it. That's why I'm here. Plus, I knew I'd get into it with you. I like getting into it with you.

[Anonymouse]

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Originally posted by loseyourname Decision-making is not a spiritual matter. Decision making takes place in the brain, which is quite material and quite studyable. I never said I believed in a soul, either. I just said that I didn't disbelieve in it. I certainly feel some form of a human spirit, but whether or not that translates into any form of individual awareness without the presence of a physical body I don't know. I don't see how any of us could know.

Mind, money, and materialism. The only thing that lasts is the mind. Well if you don't see how we could know, why are you here discussing, if not but for a desire, since you know my position that, yes we can know, and yes we are part of a spiritual collective consciousness, and that, yes, there is life beyond the material world.