Free Will

[Arvestaked]

Originally posted by Arvestaked That term, "free will", is a religious, scapegoat, mind-control phrase. Scientists do not size things up that way because it is meaningless and has no bearing on reality; it is tangental to logical thought. It is a term born from misunderstanding and/or denial.

Love is biochemical. Philosophy is biochemical.

I agree with Arvestaked.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by loseyourname Strict mathematical laws come into play in the interactions of minute particles, as you said. They all behave according to the laws of physics. It would be fallacy to refer to them as predetermined, unless you were able to demonstrate somehow that the laws of physics were determined. Nonetheless, since the English language does not contain any better word that I know of, predetermined will have to do for our purposes.

You're a biologist, so you know as well as the rest of us that biological systems, though almost impossibly complex, still obey the same laws that these minute particles do. They still behave in a way that, determined or not, is entirely predictable given complete enough data. The only way a human system may be said to overcome this is through some manifestation of consciousness that allows us to make a decision that runs contrary somehow to what the laws of physics would have the molecule floating around in our neurons do. I don't think that anybody here knows enough about the nature of consciousness to say whether or not that takes place, so none of us can really answer the question.

Mouse can go on and on about spiritualism, but this one at least is not a spiritual question, unless you can demonstrate a spiritual manifestation in the phenomenon of consciousness. ck can go on saying because we make decisions, we must be free, but even she admits that these decisions reflect desires that we seem to have no control over. In the end, I don't think any of us really has any idea.

So if you say there is no free will, I guess what you just said is in accordance with the prophecy.

[loseyourname]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by ckBejug But what of the whole predetermination thing? How does the number thing, the rigidity and unchangable structure of things that exist in math, that exists whether or not we know what they are, how do we gebneralize that to apply to predetermination in life, in physical manifestations. Which are, at the end, what we're talking about...

Strict mathematical laws come into play in the interactions of minute particles, as you said. They all behave according to the laws of physics. It would be fallacy to refer to them as predetermined, unless you were able to demonstrate somehow that the laws of physics were determined. Nonetheless, since the English language does not contain any better word that I know of, predetermined will have to do for our purposes.

You're a biologist, so you know as well as the rest of us that biological systems, though almost impossibly complex, still obey the same laws that these minute particles do. They still behave in a way that, determined or not, is entirely predictable given complete enough data. The only way a human system may be said to overcome this is through some manifestation of consciousness that allows us to make a decision that runs contrary somehow to what the laws of physics would have the molecule floating around in our neurons do. I don't think that anybody here knows enough about the nature of consciousness to say whether or not that takes place, so none of us can really answer the question.

Mouse can go on and on about spiritualism, but this one at least is not a spiritual question, unless you can demonstrate a spiritual manifestation in the phenomenon of consciousness. ck can go on saying because we make decisions, we must be free, but even she admits that these decisions reflect desires that we seem to have no control over. In the end, I don't think any of us really has any idea.

[Arvestaked]

That term, "free will", is a religious, scapegoat, mind-control phrase. Scientists do not size things up that way because it is meaningless and has no bearing on reality; it is tangental to logical thought. It is a term born from misunderstanding and/or denial.

Love is biochemical. Philosophy is biochemical.

[loseyourname]

Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by Anonymouse But as to your question of free will, like you said, what is our belief? Essentially it goes to free will. My belief is that it is God given, to humanity. In order to be free to do good, man is free to do evil. He is free to choose to reject God and believe in God, embrace evolution or, embrace spirituality. Man is free to live in ignorance, and he is free to educate and enlighten himself and see those who rule him and try to deceive him.

It would be nice if somewhere in your little dissertation you would explain why you believe we have free will. Please don't tell me because we desire it, either.

[loseyourname]

Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by ckBejug We have the free will to do what we desire. What we desire may have been determined beforehand (I believe the whole determinism thing to the extent that I understand were all made up of the tiniest atoms and molecules and their functions, etc are already known/predetermined...), but we still have the ability to desire.

If what we desire is predetermined, and we only have the ability to do as we desire, which is predetermined, please explain how that constitutes free will.

[Aphrodit3]

Either our actions are determined, in which case we are not responsible for them, or they are the result of random events, in which case we are not responsible for them. - Hume's fork

[ckBejug]

Originally posted by Baron Dants I'm not sure I get the question, and I don't have any studies to base myself on, but here goes.

To soort of reply to what CK was saying (I'm not even sure if I get it), even if you're not living in the Middle East, you cannot always do what you would choose over something else, because of the will of others.

The simplest example would be (yes, very corny and cheesy, I know):
You like a certain girl/guy, but this person hates your best friend and your best friend hates him/her.

While you would rather go out with him/her over aaaaanyone else, you still might not do so, because of the implication on the will of others.

Do I make sense? I don't know....I just didn't want to make a stupid joke about a thread and then not try to be serious about it.

I get what you mean, but that doesn't necessarily present you with a complete inability to make a decision, does it? You still have the free will to choose. That's what I'm talking about. Granted you now have the choice whether to choose the girl, hurt your friend or choose the friend, hurt the girl. Right? Even in this difficult situation, you have the choice between two pretty much equal things. Your friend and the girl you like, if they are both people you like, are pretty much on equal footing. Choosing one over the other would end up causing the same hurt to either one of them. Right? Given that, you still have a CHOICE between the two... Thus, unless someone is standing at your head saying you can't choose, and must go with the one he says, you have FREE WILL.

Thanks for answering. It's nice to talk to people about other things for a change...

[ckBejug]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by Anonymouse I thought we agree, but it appears we don't, for you are bending what I said, to mean something else, such as your 2-knot example. I am dealing with numbers, not physical manifestations of things. Math is a predetermined medium, no matter how ignorant we may be of the workings of 2+2, the answer remains unchanged. It is there, for us to discover it. Just like inventions are there for us to discover. The idea ( like the answer in math ), exists, we merely uncover it.

As to our free will within the context of the greater cycle, mostly what Matrix, and Lord of the Rings, deal into, I do agree with you on that.

We do agree, except for the predetermination thing, which you didn't really reply to. I was just kidding about the 2+2 stuff. I was reading about Fibonacci and Bishop Berkeley all these others with 'theories' about 2+2 and I just thought I'd throw it in the mix... The idea exists, we merely uncover it. Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself. But what of the whole predetermination thing? How does the number thing, the rigidity and unchangable structure of things that exist in math, that exists whether or not we know what they are, how do we gebneralize that to apply to predetermination in life, in physical manifestations. Which are, at the end, what we're talking about...

[Anonymouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Free Will

Originally posted by ckBejug So far we agree that we have the free will to choose but only within the context of the predetermined future. I don't buy this 'everything is predetermined' idea. If everything was predetermined, who or what predetermined it? You mentioned volition, doesn't the fact that there is such a thing as volition, that I AM conscious of my own decisions obliterate the idea that any decisions I am making are going to be predetermined? So if I decide to make no decisions, and just sit there. That decision was predetermined? I don't but it. I think we are far too intelligent even those among us who aren't so very intelligent, to have all our thoughts and actions be the result of some predetermined course of action....

Also, 2+2=5 for extremely large values of 2. When a 2-knot rope is put together with another 2-knot rope, a 5-knot rope results.

So, when a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear it fall, does it make any sound? Since sound is basically the result of the waves hitting the inner workings of our ears and being translated into what our brain recognizes as 'noise', lack of someone around to hear it fall would mean lack of noise... right?

I thought we agree, but it appears we don't, for you are bending what I said, to mean something else, such as your 2-knot example. I am dealing with numbers, not physical manifestations of things. Math is a predetermined medium, no matter how ignorant we may be of the workings of 2+2, the answer remains unchanged. It is there, for us to discover it. Just like inventions are there for us to discover. The idea ( like the answer in math ), exists, we merely uncover it.

As to our free will within the context of the greater cycle, mostly what Matrix, and Lord of the Rings, deal into, I do agree with you on that.