notes and comments

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

It's a sheer shame Mr. Baliozian that you blatantly resort to fallacies, lies and propaganda to simply dilute even the 'smallest' victory of the Armenian nation. Practicing the exact same methods you're preaching against over and over and over and over in every single line of your posts...

Instead of "duking it out" by each side showing their sources and then bashing the "fallacies" of the other side's source, I think it would help the information exchange process if you kept the higher ground with gentleness and offered to provide more sources to the other party.

[Sako]

Re: elegy

How about telling Bell to do something similar as well?

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

He names a long list of Armenian, Western and Persian scholors. Why is it that hard for your ego to recant your own propaganda as you promised? Mr. Nourizadeh is a well-known and serious writer translator and an Iranian intellectual. Do you think he'd be that gullible to put his reputation at risk and reproduce some myth for the Iranian reader on their own History to swallow up? If you pay attention to his rhetoric, you'll certainly notice that it's been written by a non-Armenian, someone who is not trying to add any 'parabanutyun' on the bravery of the Armenain nation...

Once I asked one of my linguistics professors about Diakonov, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, who all earned their high reputation from the Soviet days. Apparently they had to publish scholarly views that support what their bosses wanted them to say. In fact, if you had a private conversation with these linguists about their actual views, apparently they'll tell you a story very much different from what they say for the public.

Therefore, I agree with Ara here that you have to be extremely careful with "reputed intellectuals/historians/scholars". I think it is our duty to verify their credibility for ourselves, which is often difficult if we have no idea about how the politics work of the establishment they work for. Ara talks a lot about how the establishment works, he's been cheated/victimized by it all his life. I'm not saying that he knows the whole picture more objectively than others when it comes to history, but perhaps we can learn something from him about the activity of reading history.

I too would like to see some Persian/Iranian sources that talk about the Battle of Avarayr using historical records of the Sassanids themselves.

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

How about telling Bell to do something similar as well?

I could enforce the rules and I can implore you to set the example for the treatment you expect from others so that my job can be easier in singling out members who clearly are going too far with their attacks.

No personal attacks guys, however witty you try to be with them.

[Sako]

Re: elegy

I could enforce the rules and I can implore you to set the example for the treatment you expect from others so that my job can be easier in singling out members who clearly are going too far with their attacks.

I only attack when others attack me, J. Bell has been giving xxxx to everyone who doesn't think like him for months and the result? He's still here giving us his xxxx. You guys must really like him (j/k) !

[hrai]

Re: elegy

Once I asked one of my linguistics professors about Diakonov, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, who all earned their high reputation from the Soviet days. Apparently they had to publish scholarly views that support what their bosses wanted them to say. In fact, if you had a private conversation with these linguists about their actual views, apparently they'll tell you a story very much different from what they say for the public.

Therefore, I agree with Ara here that you have to be extremely careful with "reputed intellectuals/historians/scholars". I think it is our duty to verify their credibility for ourselves, which is often difficult if we have no idea about how the politics work of the establishment they work for. Ara talks a lot about how the establishment works, he's been cheated/victimized by it all his life. I'm not saying that he knows the whole picture more objectively than others when it comes to history, but perhaps we can learn something from him about the activity of reading history.
I too would like to see some Persian/Iranian sources that talk about the Battle of Avarayr using historical records of the Sassanids themselves.

This is the main problem for any research into history. All historians have an "axe to grind" for various reasons, mostly to suit the needs and instructions of their sponsors. Seeking out sources from all parties involved is a way to find a closer truth to the actual event. Unfortunately, the further removed from events that we are, the less likely it is that we can find more evidence.
The ancient legacy of Armenia has unfortunately been ignored and dismissed, for political reasons, by both the West and the old Soviet system.
Currently, the turkish and yoodish lobbies continue to maintain the success of "ancient turkey" and the fallacy of civilization beginning in the "Fertile Crescent". While-ever turkey and Israel pump money into the coffers of universities worldwide, publishers and historians this will continue.

[Lucin]

Re: elegy

Instead of "duking it out" by each side showing their sources and then bashing the "fallacies" of the other side's source, I think it would help the information exchange process if you kept the higher ground with gentleness and offered to provide more sources to the other party.

I wonder whether you've noticed that he is constantly bashing everyone and everything with his 'witty' insults? I was simply trying to point out, in his own rhetoric, the other side of the coin which is himself…

Once I asked one of my linguistics professors about Diakonov, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, who all earned their high reputation from the Soviet days. Apparently they had to publish scholarly views that support what their bosses wanted them to say. In fact, if you had a private conversation with these linguists about their actual views, apparently they'll tell you a story very much different from what they say for the public.

I believe your analogy is faulty here… There is a limit for everything. Unlike Dikranov, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, who had to behave/write according to certain restricted codes imposed by the Soviet authorities; Mr. Nourizadeh has no reason to comply with the demands of the government while writing on a subject pertaining to the Sassanids ruling in the 5th century in a war where the Persian army is the victor on the battlefield but a loser on the ideological ground. What's more, the book's readers are mainly Iranians, so can he really skew their own history in a negative light and then hand it on to his people?

Therefore, I agree with Ara here that you have to be extremely careful with "reputed intellectuals/historians/scholars". I think it is our duty to verify their credibility for ourselves, which is often difficult if we have no idea about how the politics work of the establishment they work for. Ara talks a lot about how the establishment works, he's been cheated/victimized by it all his life. I'm not saying that he knows the whole picture more objectively than others when it comes to history, but perhaps we can learn something from him about the activity of reading history.

And did you try to question Ara's only source too?

I do not agree with the above. If I had to learn anything serious from him, it'd be his excellent command in different languages and his ability to translate from one language to another in a fluent way. There is spirit in his translation works and he masters perfectly transferring the intercultural nuances while translating. That's it.

I too would like to see some Persian/Iranian sources that talk about the Battle of Avarayr using historical records of the Sassanids themselves.

Nourizadeh uses Armenain, European and Persian sources, but doesn't mention the name of the books exactly.

I only attack when others attack me, J. Bell has been giving xxxx to everyone who doesn't think like him for months and the result? He's still here giving us his xxxx. You guys must really like him (j/k) !

I agree.

[Lucin]

Re: elegy

This is the main problem for any research into history. All historians have an "axe to grind" for various reasons, mostly to suit the needs and instructions of their sponsors...

This is partially true. If we had to dismiss everything and every historian as such, then inch kmna?

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

I wonder whether you've noticed that he is constantly bashing everyone and everything with his 'witty' insults? I was simply trying to point out, in his own rhetoric, the other side of the coin which is himself…

I have noticed. That's why we all need to tone it down. The first thing that happens when I try to cool things down in a thread like this is fingerpointing, which I take into account but do not appreciate when it lasts too long. Hopefully this phase is over by now.

I believe your analogy is faulty here… There is a limit for everything. Unlike Dikranov, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, who had to behave/write according to certain restricted codes imposed by the Soviet authorities; Mr. Nourizadeh has no reason to comply with the demands of the government while writing on a subject pertaining to the Sassanids ruling in the 5th century in a war where the Persian army is the victor on the battlefield but a loser on the ideological ground. What's more, the book's readers are mainly Iranians, so can he really skew their own history in a negative light and then hand it on to his people?


And did you try to question Ara's only source too?

In short, you're using the same tactic that ara is using to find credibility for his own source, namely, the apparent interests (or lack thereof) of the particular scholar publishing their take on historical events. So apparently, the authors of the two sources are more similar than we think because apparently, each side is putting their own ethnicity in a not so boastful light when talking about the Battle of Avarayr. Now, if I'm to take either of your advices concerning your own sources, I become doubtful of, and paradoxically more open to hearing out each source.

I do not agree with the above. If I had to learn anything serious from him, it'd be his excellent command in different languages and his ability to translate from one language to another in a fluent way. There is spirit in his translation works and he masters perfectly transferring the intercultural nuances while translating. That's it.

I agree that he is talented in that way, however I can't help but listen to his account on how the establishment works, because it's the same thing in every authoritarian establishment around the world. Same symptoms, same causes. Perhaps it's good to know what's ahead of me if I decide to publish some scholarly material one day about Armenians, because I can already see my break with some of the norm by not depending on the reputed scholars I've already mentioned, which many Armenian archaeologists or linguists quote to find basis for their claims.

Nourizadeh uses Armenain, European and Persian sources, but doesn't mention the name of the books exactly.

Well, he's a source worth checking out nonetheless, hopefully I'll either find an English version published in the future, or have to go learn Farsi myself.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Monday, July 13, 2009
*****************************************
A SIMPLE APOLOGY
************************************************** ****
Allow me to introduce myself: “A.B., Armenian scribbler.” Which in our environment stands for less than nobody. And worse. In the words of one of our national benefactors, speaking to an elderly writer and teacher who had dared to contradict him: “I hire and fire people like you every day.” And yet, every statement I make is carefully analyzed by some readers as if a single wrong word in the wrong place would mean the total collapse of their inner world and the disintegration of the Homeland.
And what is it exactly that I have been saying? Simply this: I don't believe everything I am told by our sermonizers, speechifiers, and fund-raisers who operate on the assumption that the more they flatter us the more generous will our contribution be to their cause.
If I have been wrong, what has been my greatest mistake? Only this: to think that if my aim is to understand what's happening to us, I prefer to learn from our writers, most of whom worked for minimum wage or even nothing, unlike our bosses, bishops, and benefactors, who as far as I know have at no time been dependent on the charity of swine.
And now, may I share with you some of the things that I have learned:
From Movses Khorenatsi I have learned that our decline as a nation began in the 5th century A.D. (see his LAMENTATION).
From Yeghishé I have learned that in a divided nation, both the dividers and their dupes are destined to bite the dust.
From Naregatsi I have learned that it is a waste of time blaming others for our misfortunes and blunders. We should instead examine our conscience.
From Baronian and Odian I have learned that our religious and political leaders are not our “betters” but our worst.
From Zohrab I have learned that a free press is a key ingredient in every healthy community.
From Zarian I have learned that cannibalism and Christianity are mutually exclusive concepts.
To those who say my selection of writers is biased and reflects my preconceptions and prejudices, and that there are many others who have been more positive in their assessment of our past; I say yes, I agree. From Hagop Oshagan I have learned that a writer with a family to support will say anything to please those on whose goodwill he depends for his survival. And the sad truth is, such writers have always outnumbered the dissidents.
If I am a pessimist, it may be because so is our literature, but not to worry: for everyone who thinks as I do, there are hundreds perhaps even thousands who produce the kind of verbiage whose sole intent is to flatter our bruised egos and to convince us into believing we are in good hands and we never had it so good.
“Mi kich pogh oughargetsek.”
*
When asked by a friend to respond to some of his critics, Orson Welles is quoted as having said: “Cannot imagine what you expect me to write...beyond simple apology for having been born.”
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