notes and comments

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Why don't you read "Hayots Badmoutyun" by Hrant Pastermajian. It is in Armenian and it is translated by Moushegh Ishkhan. On page 56 "Herom yev ir daradsoume tebi arevelk". Since you are so interested as how our Dikran the Great at the very end lost his empire and one of his sons unfortunately betrayed him. While you're at it however on page 47 start reading about DIKRAN MEDS his achievements "Nevajoumnere", the King of Kings "Arkayits Arkan" on page 51, Dikran the Great's Capital "Dikrani Mayrakaghake" on page 52, Dikran's and his Palace's spirit "Dikrani yev ir baladi vokin" on page 53, Armenia's social construction "Hayasdani Engerayin Garuytse" on page 54, and finally Armenia's Military Strength "Hayasdani Zinvoragan Ouje" on page 55. The Book is published by Hamazkain Vahe Setian Debaran and it is printed in Lebanon.

i remember to have read the book when i was very young.
Pastermadjian like Moushegh Ishkhan was a member of the Party, yes?

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

i remember to have read the book when i was very young.
Pastermadjian like Moushegh Ishkhan was a member of the Party, yes?

They may have been but I really don't know that fact. But his book I believe is in English and Moushegh Ishkhan translated it in Armenian.

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

i am not a historian.
i don't read sources.
i only choose which historians i can trust.
the others i dismiss as charlatans and propagandists.
and if it gives you pleasure to dismiss me as one of them,
go right ahead.
i will not come between you and your ego.
Ego!
i may expand on that concept in the future...
in the meantime i suggest you do not trust anything that flatters your ego.
because that's when they'll get you.
politicians need dupes.
all leaders do.
avoid them like the plague.

Are you sure you know very well your sources and trust them your eyes closed? Then the others who wrote our history books are all charlatans? I don't believe so. And speaking about Ego as you put it; don't you think all mankind and nations exercise and dwell a little or at large on that Ego? And where will we be if we lose touch with our Egos completely? What national bravery will we teach our children if we didn't have a bit of an Ego ourselves? Plus I do not believe that all or most of our historians are liars or that they lied. I believe it stands for truth.

As a matter of fact right now and as a mother I will now go to read about our Dikran Meds' achievements to my child.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: elegy

i am not a historian.
i don't read sources.
i only choose which historians i can trust.
the others i dismiss as charlatans and propagandists.
and if it gives you pleasure to dismiss me as one of them,
go right ahead.
i will not come between you and your ego.
Ego!
i may expand on that concept in the future...
in the meantime i suggest you do not trust anything that flatters your ego.
because that's when they'll get you.
politicians need dupes.
all leaders do.
avoid them like the plague.

ID = Personal Unconscious where all repressed memories dwell
Ego = Conscious mind
Superego = Conscience

Of course we can add the Collective Unconscious as well and say spiritual stuff as well

Sorry just like people using the terms Freud had properly

[Lucin]

Re: elegy

As for the Battle of Avarair:
it is mentioned only by one Armenian chronicler who happened to be a Mamigonian hireling.
No one else, not even
Persian chronicles mention it -- and they had every reason to brag about it...with all their elephants and mighty/invincible army... it must have been an important chapter in their military history. and as a rule, they never fail to mention a victory.

my source: a highly reputed Mekhitarist historian and medievalist.

If I'm not mistaken I remember having read it in Persian accounts very briefly, but I'll try to check it out again… They basically did not achieve their main goal (which was to convert Christian Armenians) so do you think they were that stupid and gullible to glorify and brag about their unachieved goals?

Now, why chose one historian over an Armenian chronicle and call the latter a charlatan? How convenient! In an objective light, you favour one propaganda over another one and then deliver it to the reader as 'the' truth… so based on your own deductions; can we conclude that you're a charlatan too?

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

If I'm not mistaken I remember having read it in Persian accounts very briefly, but I'll try to check it out again… They basically did not achieve their main goal (which was to convert Christian Armenians) so do you think they were that stupid and gullible to glorify and brag about their unachieved goals?

Thank you Lucin, just as I suspected it. The Persians most probably didn't achieve their real goal of converting us from our Christian Armenian faith and therefore they didn't dare to mention it in their history books.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

If I'm not mistaken I remember having read it in Persian accounts very briefly, but I'll try to check it out again… They basically did not achieve their main goal (which was to convert Christian Armenians) so do you think they were that stupid and gullible to glorify and brag about their unachieved goals?

Now, why chose one historian over an Armenian chronicle and call the latter a charlatan? How convenient! In an objective light, you favour one propaganda over another one and then deliver it to the reader as 'the' truth… so based on your own deductions; can we conclude that you're a charlatan too?

if the persians mentioned the Battle of Avarair in their chronicles,
i am more than willing to dismiss my Mekhitarist source as unreliable
and accept you as my teacher.
as for the Persians failing to convert us:
Convert whom exactly?
the Mamikonians were of Chinese extraction.
the Bagratunis xxxish.
most of our leaders were foreigners.
we know that under the Soviets
our leadership converted to atheism en masse.
In the Ottoman Empire,
many Armenians became Muslims.
are you implying armenians have degenerated because they are no longer as dedicated Christians as they were under the Mamikonians?

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Are you sure you know very well your sources and trust them your eyes closed? Then the others who wrote our history books are all charlatans? I don't believe so. And speaking about Ego as you put it; don't you think all mankind and nations exercise and dwell a little or at large on that Ego? And where will we be if we lose touch with our Egos completely? What national bravery will we teach our children if we didn't have a bit of an Ego ourselves? Plus I do not believe that all or most of our historians are liars or that they lied. I believe it stands for truth.

As a matter of fact right now and as a mother I will now go to read about our Dikran Meds' achievements to my child.

Anoush: the best thing you can do to your children is to teach them honesty.
you will never regret that, and neither will they.
but if you say nationalism or patriotism
will make them better human beings:
remember, please, that all nationalists and patriots teach the same thing to their children (yes, including turks)
and in doing so
they prepare the ground for future wars and massacres.

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

Anoush: the best thing you can do to your children is to teach them honesty.
you will never regret that, and neither will they.
but if you say nationalism or patriotism
will make them better human beings:
remember, please, that all nationalists and patriots teach the same thing to their children (yes, including turks)
and in doing so
they prepare the ground for future wars and massacres.

And Ara what makes you think so blindfoldedly that your sources aren't a lie yet our sources aren't indeed the truth.

[Lucin]

Re: elegy

But do you make your allegations on how the Persians didn't mention it? Have you read all their chronicles and articles?

Of course not. That would not suit his propaganda in any way...

if the persians mentioned the Battle of Avarair in their chronicles,
i am more than willing to dismiss my Mekhitarist source as unreliable
and accept you as my teacher.
as for the Persians failing to convert us:
Convert whom exactly?
the Mamikonians were of Chinese extraction.
the Bagratunis xxxish.
most of our leaders were foreigners.
we know that under the Soviets
our leadership converted to atheism en masse.
In the Ottoman Empire,
many Armenians became Muslims.
are you implying armenians have degenerated because they are no longer as dedicated Christians as they were under the Mamikonians?

It has been mentioned in Persian history books/ newspapers numerous times but as I (as well as Anoush) mentioned they have no reason to glorify or brag about the gaffs of their Shah...

I found the following excerpt (originally in Persian and published in Iran) in The History and Culture of Armenia (Tarikh va farhange Armanestan), written by a reputed Iranian scholar, writer and translator, Ahmad Nourizadeh. It was a chapter of about four pages, I just translated parts of it:

Rebellion against the Sassanid Shahs (pages 43-47)

It explains thoroughly the relation of Sassanids with an autonomous Armenia. During the reign of Yazdgerd II (438-457), after the normalization of Persian-Byzantine relations, the Persians attempt to dismantle an autonomous Armenia, convert Armenians and assimilate them into the Iranian nation… They surprisingly face the rejection of such a decision by the Armenian officials and Nakharars, including Mamikonian who later takes the lead of the Armenian army composed of 66 thousand warriors with few successful moves at the beginning of the battle but which is being crushed by the mighty Persian army, three times bigger that the Armenian army in numbers… Mamikonian is being killed and the remaining of the Armenian warriors retreat, in the meantime the Sassanid Shah pursues a milder politics towards the Armenians, decreases the taxes but to intimidate further and avoid rebellions in the future imprisons and exiles 21 of the priests and Nakharars who were among the main perpetrators...

It's a sheer shame Mr. Baliozian that you blatantly resort to fallacies, lies and propaganda to simply dilute even the 'smallest' victory of the Armenian nation. Practicing the exact same methods you're preaching against over and over and over and over in every single line of your posts...