notes and comments

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

for 600 years we were the Sultan's most loyal servants -- "the most loyal millet."
why would he massacre us at a time when he needed us most?
the answer must be:
because we believed the West (we were dupes)
and because we counted on russian victory (bad judgment).

Or... The answer must be, because we were christian, and Christians in the Balkans were very successful in seceding from the Ottomans with their revolutions, Russians were more or less successful in kicking Turkish ass in war... And here you have Christians in your own empire who form the majority in many regions of Eastern Turkey. The Christians were the enemy, except maybe in Istanbul and Izmir.

Ara, some of the Dashnaks plotted against the Russians even, when Tzar Nicholas II's regime was being overly repressive towards the Armenians in Transcaucasia. It is just so simple to lay the blame on Armenians allying themselves with Russia. Why is it so hard to believe that Armenians allied themselves with themselves, for sheer hopes of survival, some self respect through their personal armed struggle? Who cares if we counted on the West. Who cares if we counted on the Russians. We fought on our own because we could not continue living under such horrible conditions. And this is our fault? After 600 years of being the most loyal millet, the Turks pushed us to the most savage depths of hell, before and after "the official genocide".

The Sultan needed us the most? Yes, he needed us alright, needed to liquidate us and everything we owned so that it would empower a Pan-Turkic movement, a strong, clear ideology that could fight wars and win, as the traditional Islamic war doctrine of the Ottomans needed to be revamped. We were in the way, just as the xxxs were in the way for the Nazis, just as the Circassians were in the way of the Russians.

And guess what, we will always be in the way, until the day our race is destroyed.

[Sako]

Re: elegy

why would he massacre us at a time when he needed us most?
the answer must be:
because we believed the West (we were dupes)
and because we counted on russian victory (bad judgment).

The answer is because the Turks hated us not because we were traitors or something. Sure, we made the mistake of trusting the West and Russia but remember where all this BS started from instead of telling us how it ENDED. Somehow, you seem to make it sound like everything was fine and dandy and as if we deserved what we got. If that's not what your saying then I suggest you write in a different manner Mr. B so we'll understand you correctly. This is my humble request.

[Sako]

Re: elegy

for 600 years we were the Sultan's most loyal servants -- "the most loyal millet."

Incase you didn't know, Armenians suffered throughout those 600 years. We didn't live happily ever after.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: elegy

The answer is because the Turks hated us not because we were traitors or something. Sure, we made the mistake of trusting the West and Russia but remember where all this BS started from instead of telling us how it ENDED. Somehow, you seem to make it sound like everything was fine and dandy and as if we deserved what we got. If that's not what your saying then I suggest you write in a different manner Mr. B so we'll understand you correctly. This is my humble request.

I blame Pan Turkism, read Ziya Gokalp, Arparslan Turkes and Enver Pasha

[Sako]

Re: elegy

Lol, you can understand why the AG took place without even reading those books. For some reason though, I hear tons of excuses which I'm tired of hearing. Only hatred ... and a very serious type of hatred could force the Turks to do what they did. I have nothing more to add.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Socrates: “Know thyself.”
The Koran: “He who knows himself, knows God.”
The Bible: “The Kingdom of God is within you.”
Three synonymous statement.
Three different ways of saying the same thing.
*
“The Kingdom of God is within you,” and “Our Father Who art in heaven”:
I see a contradiction here. Which may suggest that the Bible cannot be the word of God. God does not contradict Himself. Neither does He speak with a forked tongue. Men do.

First off, just like to say that it feels refreshing hearing you reply to me and J ! Now I feel like I'm talking to a person instead of a diary. And regarding God contradicting himself ... there is nothing God CANNOT do. Please don't forget that...

Before you answer anything, please know that I'm not a fanatic Christian and my views on spirituality, religion, etc. go very deep and have very deep roots, going way beyond fanaticism which I am completely against and come from lot's of experience, travels, etc. I don't mean to brag or anything, I just want to more or less let you know who I am so we won't misunderstand each other. It's very easy for that to happen in forums where you can't see the person your talking to in front of you.

Now first, What is your perception of God? A strong man with a big, silky beard sitting on a throne somewhere in heaven? If so, then naturally, the second statement “Our Father Who art in heaven” would seem more rational to you. If you were on the other hand an impersonalist who couldn't fully understand where God is or WHO God is, you would think the first statement “The Kingdom of God is within you” was more rational. To me ... both statements are correct and rational! Why? Because God is everywhere. He is in your heart and he is at the same time in heaven. He sees all of us but we can't see him, which leads some to doubt (for no reason). I get the impression that you think God can only be in one place at one time and if I'm correct then forgive me but you are wildly mistaken. God is not a human like us. He can be wherever he likes and IS everywhere. Also, we are all part of God but we aren't God. We are nothing but a spark. I think the main question is ... Why do you see a difference between the first statement and the second statement? Why is the Bible not the word of God to you? Or better yet, what is it REALLY that makes you doubt Jesus Christ or the Bible?

I have no problem whatsoever if you like another religion Mr. B. God gave us many roads ... we can choose whichever we like ... but they all lead to the same destination sooner or later just like all the rivers in the world end up in the ocean. Some are simply LONGER and more troublesome then the others! The choice is still ours. Here's a great quote ... one of my favorites: Life isn't a destination ... it's a journey!

Here's a simple question for those who can't understand the following. Why is there so many religions in the world? The answer is simple. Because there are so many types of people with different capacities and for that reason God has given all of us many different options/choices along with a certain amount of freewill to be able to make decisions. We can choose whatever we like. Here's what I've chosen...

I as a person respect all religions because I believe that God is ONE! I have many friends all over the world. Some call me Sako, some Sarkis, some Sachi, and others Jason. But I'm still the same person! In the same way God has many names but they all belong to the same entity so if I dis any religion, I dis my own God automatically. For that reason, I respect all but stay on my path and always look at the bigger picture and most importantly try to remain a good person because if you aren't a good person FIRST you will never be able to be a good devotee or ANYTHING else! I think we can all agree with this simple fact.



I agree with you 100%. I see so many do just the opposite. They disrespect the religion itself which is downright low instead of blaming the followers who put a bad name on it/them.



Mr. B, a simple question again, how do you perceive a teacher and a student? Naturally the teacher teaches and the student learns right? In the same way, religion must be taught and practiced and followed by the people because people nowadays in this age cannot find the right path without guidance just like you can't read or write without going to school first. I agree that to advise another when you YOURSELF aren't doing the right thing is wrong but to think that all who teach are that way is simply foolish. Religion is a school of learning ... it is a very deep subject ... it isn't something material though like math and science. It is the science of God. If you have something against religion or are intolerant of such subjects, please let me know so I'll stop here but if you aren't then please read on.

Bottom line is, Religion is perceived very wrongly nowadays and so is God, spirituality, faith, etc. People base belief on "Seeing is Believing" which is BS. A blind man can't see the sun ... does that mean the sun doesn't exist? Is his/her way of thinking correct?



Very wrong, again. This leads to basically "Do what I say, not what I do"



Not much of a challenge here Mr. B, no offence . I've been through much tougher discussions. I feel you have a lot to say and say it but in a certain way. I would appreciate it if you said everything in a more straightforward way instead of giving me lists of different thoughts divided by stars. If you would like us to go deeper into the subject at hand, it would be only an honor for me to continue conversing, especially if our friend Jgk joined us. Me and him go way back ! You definitely don't bore me but I would appreciate it if you talked to us in a more casual way, if you don't mind.[/QUOTE]

i believe with Socrates that "of the gods we know nothing."
i also believe god is unknowable and incomprehensible.

as for teachers: it is not their job to brainwash but to warn against brainwashing.
it is their job to open the mind, not to cloase it.

about men: i am on the side of moderates who mind their own business when it comes to their faith. i am against fanatics who brainwash young minds and thus contaminate them with fanaticism.
did i answer all your questions?

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

The answer is because the Turks hated us not because we were traitors or something. Sure, we made the mistake of trusting the West and Russia but remember where all this BS started from instead of telling us how it ENDED. Somehow, you seem to make it sound like everything was fine and dandy and as if we deserved what we got. If that's not what your saying then I suggest you write in a different manner Mr. B so we'll understand you correctly. This is my humble request.

it all started because
when the turks invaded our country
we were divided and an easy target.
they were a minority but they were united.
exactly what happened with the indians of america:
they could have easily massacred the first white men, but they were too busy massacring one another...

what's done is done.
but we are still divided, which means after 600 years of slavery and a genocide, we have learned NOTHING from history.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Monday, June 14, 2009
*****************************************
ODDS AND ENDS
************************************************** ****
If I am for honesty it is not because I love truth (which I will never know) but because I hate all those who deceived me when I was young, gullible, and could not yet think for myself.
*
Am I a failure if so far the world has failed to provide me with a friendly audience?
*
A good speechifier knows what the people want to hear and he doesn't mind submitting his intelligence to the rabble.
*
Sometimes our first impressions are more accurate because they are based one a wider and therefore more balanced set of data. Afterwards we can be easily swayed by words.
*
To attack and insult someone from a position of self-assessed infallibility is to openly declare oneself to be unteachable, unreasonable, and unspeakable.
*
Long live fools and fanatics! If it weren't for them, I would run out of inspiration.
*
We like to say there are always two sides to every story after which we readily give in to the temptation of believing our side.
#

[Sako]

Re: elegy

i believe with Socrates that "of the gods we know nothing."
i also believe god is unknowable and incomprehensible.

Then in that case you shouldn't say God doesn't do this or that! You contradict what you just said when you do...

as for teachers: it is not their job to brainwash but to warn against brainwashing.
it is their job to open the mind, not to cloase it.

Not all teachers close your mind..........

about men: i am on the side of moderates who mind their own business when it comes to their faith. i am against fanatics who brainwash young minds and thus contaminate them with fanaticism.

I agree but if all men mind their own business ... the new generation will be illiterate! What if all teachers minded their own business. What according to you would happen?

did i answer all your questions?

Not really ... I hope you understood me correctly though !

[Sako]

Re: elegy

it all started because
when the turks invaded our country
we were divided and an easy target.
they were a minority but they were united.
exactly what happened with the indians of america:
they could have easily massacred the first white men, but they were too busy massacring one another...

what's done is done.
but we are still divided, which means after 600 years of slavery and a genocide, we have learned NOTHING from history.

I agree but you shouldn't make it seem like everything was all good. The Turks have never been good with us for 600 years. They have given us hell for 600 years and in the end, they realized they couldn't contain their hate any longer...