notes and comments

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

what do u mean?
And not all of Armenia were under ottoman rule.East were under other occupants.

yes but the victims were mostly subjects of the ottoman empire.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

a reader writes:

ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARIES

They were the true heroes, the only ones with their head on straight,
according to reading the lines and between the lines of
Grigoris Balakian's 1910's-20's book, the ARMENIAN GOLGOTHA,
translated to English from Armenian and released this year.

Please let me know if anyone wants page numbers, or paragraphs
from the book.

He completely rejected Turkish propaganda of 1915 and the
false notion that the Armenians (who sporadically
defended themselves against Genocide) were somehow
responsible for their own destruction by sometimes
fighting back against their physical destruction.

In summary, by example:

Turks search the village for weapons:

Any weapons?
Answer: NO. Result: you die!
Answer; YES. Result: you die for owning a weapons -- which
Christians are of course not supposed to own by Muslim Turkish law!

Or, as ROBERT MELSON, PhD
said:

Armenians were killed
for the DEMONIZATION of them that occurred
IN THE MINDS OF THE TURKS.

-Van



my answer: (at the risk of repeating myself):

armenians were killed because
some of them openly sided with the russians
and most of them were taken in by the verbal commitments of the Great Powers of the West.
they should have known that neither the russians nor the west
gave a sh*t about armenians.
that's how it was then,
that's how it is now.
and that's how it will always be.
that doesn't mean the turks did the right thing.
turks are as guilty of atrocities
as we are of being dupes.

http://baliozian.blogspot.com/

[Sako]

Re: elegy

that doesn't mean the turks did the right thing.
turks are as guilty of atrocities
as we are of being dupes.

Please don't place so much emphasis on our mistakes. I'm saying this AGAIN! This didn't happen because we sided with Russia or anyone else. Don't give me those excuses because even if we didn't trust anyone (the West/Russia) ... we'd still go through Genocide!

[KanadaHye]

Re: elegy

please don't place so much emphasis on our mistakes. I'm saying this again! This didn't happen because we sided with russia or anyone else. Don't give me those excuses because even if we didn't trust anyone (the west/russia) ... We'd still go through genocide!

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

it all started because
when the turks invaded our country
we were divided and an easy target.
they were a minority but they were united.
exactly what happened with the indians of america:
they could have easily massacred the first white men, but they were too busy massacring one another...

what's done is done.
but we are still divided, which means after 600 years of slavery and a genocide, we have learned NOTHING from history.

It is true that we are divided, we must work to see beyond our selfish interests if we want to achieve anything for Armenians. But why assume that there are no Armenians who have thrown their entire life towards God and the welfare of their people? And we pay homage to these inspiring people. There are corrupt people who pay homage to them too, but nonetheless, the stories are available for the virtuous among us (or rather, those who engage in virtuous deeds by working against the self's satanic interests) to learn about, so that we can add to this long epic of self-sacrifice that is a prerequisite for our survival.

It is the predicament of Armenians to be tested by enemies, by forces of assimilation, violence, estrangement and loss of our homes... It is not easy to act on behalf of Armenians in a beneficent way, it requires personal sacrifice and courage to rebuilt from scratch what former good has been lost. If there is anything I as an Armenian have learned from reading and hearing about our history, it is this.

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

my answer: (at the risk of repeating myself):

armenians were killed because
some of them openly sided with the russians
and most of them were taken in by the verbal commitments of the Great Powers of the West.
they should have known that neither the russians nor the west
gave a sh*t about armenians.
that's how it was then,
that's how it is now.
and that's how it will always be.
that doesn't mean the turks did the right thing.
turks are as guilty of atrocities
as we are of being dupes.
http://baliozian.blogspot.com/

Our revolutionaries who trusted the West, trusted the Russians and even trusted the Young Turks signed their own death warrants, they did not understand the waves of WWI, they did not understand diplomacy, they were too naive. The Armenians who volunteered as guides for the Russian army should've payed more careful attention to the details of Russia's strategy. Conscripted Russian Armenians, who would've numbered 100,000-300,000 according to various estimates (as opposed to the meager maximum of 6000 volunteers from the Ottoman side) would've been the most effective troops for invading Turkey, but were instead deployed to fight against Berlin, why? Because 1) Russia wanted an Armenian with no Armenians, 2) Because it could remind Russian Armenians of Armenian political aspirations which were deemed undesirable. So the Russians used the volunteers from the Ottoman side to fight on its southern frontier instead.

Nonetheless, the Young Turks, like their predecessors, wanted to wipe out the Armenians from their lands before our "betrayal". In reality, aside from the 6000 odd volunteers, Armenians were still the most loyal millet: the men obediently joined the army and fought valiantly against the Russians, the Armenians offered the Ottomans gifts, food, clothing for the army.

The most dupe like thing about the [Ottoman] Armenians was their belief that supporting the Ottomans (a policy adopted by the ARF at the onset of WWI) could somehow save them from annihilation.

The ARF considered how the Ottomans could use the fact that a few thousand Armenian volunteers joined the Russian army as a pretext for a massacre of unprecedented intensity, but, comparing a total figure of 6000 volunteers to 1.5 million loyal subjects, they figured such a massacre could not be justifiable. The Turks used it anyway as their pretext, and with their propaganda, propagated the number of volunteers according to their whims. They awaited for a pretext like this, long before the battle of Sarikamash in 1914.

These following excerpts are from the book "General Antranik and the Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Antranig Chalabian, USA 1988:

"The Russian diplomat, Adamov, sent a telegram from Erzerum in December 1913, in which he said, 'Secret meetings are being held here, and people are talking about the forthcoming Armenian massacres. Everything is ready to start the carnage; they are only waiting for orders from the capital.[A. N. Mnatsakanian, "Hai zhoghovrdi meds egherne ev azayin veradsnunde," Hushamatian meds egherni 1915-1965, edited by Gersam Aharonian and Nazareth Topalian, Beirut, 1965, p. 30"

"The following document, written on November 16, 1913, bears the signatures of Mehmed Ali, Hussein Auni, Ahmed Jemal, Mehmed dinani, Ahmed Hamdi, and Kemal: Oh! giaours [unbelievers], you know that when a mosquito flies, its life is shortened. You, stupid people, you are 'flying' now, but yours life shall be shortened. Your nasty life shall come to an end. There is no doubt that, in the near future, we shall destroy your papers, the patriarch, your meetings, and everything that goes with them. The Turkish sword has killed millions of giaours so far, and we have not lost our intention of killing millions more. We shall destroy the Armenian giaours, who are nothing but germs. [from Levon Vardan, Togh Turke khosi, Beirut, 1975, pp.25-26]"

"On November 13, 1913, the Turkish government sent the following threat to "His Beautitude, the [Armenian] Patriarch of Constantinople: You and your damned people brought catastrophe to our respectable government during the old regime [Abdul Hamid's reign], by interfering in the official business of the government and causing foreigners to write against us. You defamed our nation, particularly the honour and glory of the Ottoman youth, in the eyes of Europe. As traitors you dared to submit protests to the Interior Ministry. You should know well that the Young Turks are now watching you with caution and open eyes. We shall not hesitate to do our sacred duty which is decided, and it will be executed soon. [from Levon Vardan, Haikakan Tasnhinke ev hayeru ikial goykere, Beirut 1970, pp. 34-35]"

"In the spring of 1915, in his communique to the district authorities, Talaat wrote: 'Although the extermination of the Armenian element in Turkey was decided earlier, circumstances did not allow us to accomplish that sacred task.' [Ervand Gh. Sargsian (Sarkisian), Turkia ev nra nvajoghakan kaghakakunutiune Andrkovkasum 1914-1918, Erevan, 1954, p.231]"

Anyway, so you get the idea. This is our side of the story, may it be heard.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Our revolutionaries who trusted the West, trusted the Russians and even trusted the Young Turks signed their own death warrants, they did not understand the waves of WWI, they did not understand diplomacy, they were too naive. The Armenians who volunteered as guides for the Russian army should've payed more careful attention to the details of Russia's strategy. Conscripted Russian Armenians, who would've numbered 100,000-300,000 according to various estimates (as opposed to the meager maximum of 6000 volunteers from the Ottoman side) would've been the most effective troops for invading Turkey, but were instead deployed to fight against Berlin, why? Because 1) Russia wanted an Armenian with no Armenians, 2) Because it could remind Russian Armenians of Armenian political aspirations which were deemed undesirable. So the Russians used the volunteers from the Ottoman side to fight on its southern frontier instead.

Nonetheless, the Young Turks, like their predecessors, wanted to wipe out the Armenians from their lands before our "betrayal". In reality, aside from the 6000 odd volunteers, Armenians were still the most loyal millet: the men obediently joined the army and fought valiantly against the Russians, the Armenians offered the Ottomans gifts, food, clothing for the army.

The most dupe like thing about the [Ottoman] Armenians was their belief that supporting the Ottomans (a policy adopted by the ARF at the onset of WWI) could somehow save them from annihilation.

The ARF considered how the Ottomans could use the fact that a few thousand Armenian volunteers joined the Russian army as a pretext for a massacre of unprecedented intensity, but, comparing a total figure of 6000 volunteers to 1.5 million loyal subjects, they figured such a massacre could not be justifiable. The Turks used it anyway as their pretext, and with their propaganda, propagated the number of volunteers according to their whims. They awaited for a pretext like this, long before the battle of Sarikamash in 1914.

These following excerpts are from the book "General Antranik and the Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Antranig Chalabian, USA 1988:

"The Russian diplomat, Adamov, sent a telegram from Erzerum in December 1913, in which he said, 'Secret meetings are being held here, and people are talking about the forthcoming Armenian massacres. Everything is ready to start the carnage; they are only waiting for orders from the capital.[A. N. Mnatsakanian, "Hai zhoghovrdi meds egherne ev azayin veradsnunde," Hushamatian meds egherni 1915-1965, edited by Gersam Aharonian and Nazareth Topalian, Beirut, 1965, p. 30"

"The following document, written on November 16, 1913, bears the signatures of Mehmed Ali, Hussein Auni, Ahmed Jemal, Mehmed dinani, Ahmed Hamdi, and Kemal: Oh! giaours [unbelievers], you know that when a mosquito flies, its life is shortened. You, stupid people, you are 'flying' now, but yours life shall be shortened. Your nasty life shall come to an end. There is no doubt that, in the near future, we shall destroy your papers, the patriarch, your meetings, and everything that goes with them. The Turkish sword has killed millions of giaours so far, and we have not lost our intention of killing millions more. We shall destroy the Armenian giaours, who are nothing but germs. [from Levon Vardan, Togh Turke khosi, Beirut, 1975, pp.25-26]"

"On November 13, 1913, the Turkish government sent the following threat to "His Beautitude, the [Armenian] Patriarch of Constantinople: You and your damned people brought catastrophe to our respectable government during the old regime [Abdul Hamid's reign], by interfering in the official business of the government and causing foreigners to write against us. You defamed our nation, particularly the honour and glory of the Ottoman youth, in the eyes of Europe. As traitors you dared to submit protests to the Interior Ministry. You should know well that the Young Turks are now watching you with caution and open eyes. We shall not hesitate to do our sacred duty which is decided, and it will be executed soon. [from Levon Vardan, Haikakan Tasnhinke ev hayeru ikial goykere, Beirut 1970, pp. 34-35]"

"In the spring of 1915, in his communique to the district authorities, Talaat wrote: 'Although the extermination of the Armenian element in Turkey was decided earlier, circumstances did not allow us to accomplish that sacred task.' [Ervand Gh. Sargsian (Sarkisian), Turkia ev nra nvajoghakan kaghakakunutiune Andrkovkasum 1914-1918, Erevan, 1954, p.231]"

Anyway, so you get the idea. This is our side of the story, may it be heard.

The Armenian Question was a diplomatic football long before the massacres.
it was in the interests of the Allies and Russia to lure armenians to their side. and many armenian key players fell for that line. they had no diplomatic background. their understanding of history and politics was primitive.
the overwhelming majority of armenians lacked political awareness. but
they were victimized because the turkish fascists were racists. but then so was every other regime at the turn of the last century.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Tuesday, June 15, 2009
*****************************************
ETCETERA
************************************************** ****
The temptation to contradict is one that no Armenian can resist. It is a mental aberration and a pathological condition that only a radical shift in our educational system may cure. To begin with, we should teach our children that far from being smart, we may well be the dumbest people on earth. One reason: for more than a thousand years we have been the slaves of some of the backward and brutal people on earth, Stalin's USSR being the latest. How can I forget the fact that during the Soviet era I would receive letters and phone calls from Armenian-Americans (I called them chic Bolsheviks) trying to convince me that the Russians were our Big Brothers (literally rather than in the Orwellian sense of these words), Solzhenitsyn was a traitor, the Nobel Prize committee a xxxish conspiracy, Paradjanov a syphilitic black marketeer and pederast, and Zarian a hireling of the CIA. I have myself been accused of being an agent of every secret organization on the planet, including the KGB, the CIA, the Mossad, and the Gray Wolves, whoever the hell they are.
*
In our environment, fanaticism, ignorance, stupidity, and malice speak louder than their counterparts. As for actions: they speak louder than words only when they are directed against defenseless fellow Armenians, the more defenseless the better.
*
If that's what I think about Armenians, why do I bother writing for them?
I go on writing for them because I refuse to believe that only brown-nosers and propagandists qualify as writers, and because I believe no one is beyond redemption. I speak from experience. Once upon a time I too shared all their prejudices, blind spots, and arrogance. If I can see the light, so can anyone else. If this is an illusion, may I never lose it.
*
Michel Sardou: “God? I believe him when I need him. Like the rest of mankind. And if he fails to respond, I appeal to another.”
#

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

reply to a reader:


during the soviet era intellectuals in the ussr were divided between the collaborators with the regime and the dissidents. the collaborators have been consigned to the dustbin of history, which is what's going to happen to our own armenian-american academics if they do what's good for themselves and not what's good for the nation and their fellow armenians.


From: edward sarafian <edsarafian@yahoo. ca>
Subject: Re: [armeniandigest] Re: mandarins
To: armeniandigest@ yahoogroups. com
Received: Monday, June 15, 2009, 9:31 PM


Armenian academics/intellect uals must play by the rules set by deans and the powers that be that are mostly xxxish. It is not secret that, despite the fact many individuals xxxs feel empathy for us as Genocide survivors, the xxxish leadership which has come under the sway of Zionism, has little love nor empathy for us Armenians. They are in the Genocide denial camp along with Turkey.

If an Armenian academic goes against the tide, he will lose his tenure, be denied tenure, or just booted out. An Armenian academic needs to earn his bread and look after his career, and to buck the system can be very costly. They only way would be for more collaboration among Armenian intellectuals, banding together and then trying to get the ear of the Zionist-controlled media, which is in itself an extremely tall order.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Maria Cristina Koutoudjian <palmeira22@yahoo. com.br>
To: armeniandigest@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:25:33 PM
Subject: [armeniandigest] Re: mandarins


Ara

How many intelectual Armenians were left alive by the Turks?
We are growing now. How many time it will be need to Armenians
return to before 1915 time? Gamaaaats gamaaaats.
Regards.

Maria Cristina

--- In armeniandigest@ yahoogroups. com, arabaliozian@ ... wrote:
>
> Tuesday, August 26, 2008
> ************ ********* ********* ********* ******
> OUR MANDARINS
> ************ ********* ********* ********
> According to prof. George Bournoutian in a recent televised
interview, the world doesn't know enough about us. That is why his
central concern has been to introduce our rich history and culture to
the world, beginning with American academics who appear to be more
interested in blacks and xxxs.
> If American academics are more interested in blacks and xxxs it may
be because most of them are blacks and xxxs.
> How many academics do we have?
> About thirty years ago I remember to have read a study in which it
was stated that there were at least a thousand Armenian academics in
the United States alone. How many of our academics, who must number
over two thousand by now, are interested in our history and culture?
> If the overwhelming majority of our academics prefer to churn out
works on odar subjects, why should odar academics be any different?
> Even more to the point, why should the world be interested to know
more about us?
> What have we done to deserve their interest?
> What have we contributed to the world except victims?
> Do we really want the world to know that we are a nation whose
leadership has collaborated with some of the most criminal regimes in
the history of mankind, or a nation whose tribal rulers have
succeeded only in dividing the people thus making them more
vulnerable to foreign aggression?
> I have no doubt whatever in my mind that there are Untouchable
academics in India today, perhaps even in the United States, who
believe they too have a rich history and deserve to be better known
to the world. To prof. Bournoutian I ask: How much do you know or are
interested in knowing about the Untouchables? More questions:
> If the world knew more about us, would that be to our advantage or
disadvantage? Do we really want the world to know that even after
independence our so-called democracy in the Homeland is no better
than a farce?
> Do we really want anyone to know that after nearly a century in
America, our leaders on this continent are no better than benevolent
sultans?
> How many of our bosses, bishops, and benefactors have been freely
elected by the ppeople?
> How many of them have the right to say they represent the people?
> How many of us can even name these leaders?
> Last but not least:
> How much have we ourselves learned from our history?
> I say to prof. Bournoutian, before we introduce our history to the
world, let's introduce it to ourselves, and when I speak of history I
mean an account of the past that is both honest and objective, which
means, it does not shrink from exposing our failings. Because it is
only by acknowledging our blunders and learning from them that we may
be worthy of universal interest.
> #
>
>
>
> "Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right."
> Arthur Schopenhauer
>

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

ignorance and stupidity
may be the most innocent of all crimes
but in life
they are the most severely punished.