notes and comments

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Avedik Issahakian: "Our homeland has been thrice cursed with earthquakes, bloodthirsty neighbours, and brainless leaders."
*
Yes, we should all be grateful to our revolutionaries for saving the nation from the Ottoman yoke...even if they had a Plan B for themselves but only a Plan A for the poor defenseless people.

[Eddo211]

Re: elegy

Note on my previous post: I don't know why, but my name for the people who originated as Hebrews is converted into x's on the forum. The x's in my previous post stand for the people and religion which originated with the Hebrews, a 3 letter proper name starting with J, with E in the middle, and W on the end. Maybe this name has been abused by forumers and that is why the moderators have decided to suppress its use.

I agree with you on your previous post. This has been brought up before.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=16942

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

To Eddo 211: Thanks for the link on xxx.

On AB:
AB is a remarkable wit, a sterling aphorist, a fountain of wisdom, a moralist of the highest order and an impressive cosmopolite. Armenians are lucky he didn't check out of the group a long time ago and still chooses to address them with his devil's advocate admonitions. A good antidote for the shortcomings of many an Armenian, no doubt. But when it comes to specific arguments and backing up some of his more damning assertions, which he flings out right and left without substantiation, he prefers to change the subject and engage in self-publishing his latest musings. A pity.

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

Thank you, Anoush, but:

from Anoush, p. 23
The Doenme Zionist xxxs were determined to carry out their mission whether Armenians wanted their lands back or not. The Doenme Zionist leaders headed by Talaat Pasha. . . .

I would like to ask Anoush if she has any concrete evidence that Talaat Pasha was born a Jew (other than his being from Salonika and having taught in a J[SIZE="2"]e[/SIZEwi]sh school), or is this just an unexamined and unverified tradition passed along from generation to generation? (I've also heard that he was a Gypsy.) This is a very serious matter because it touches on contemporary relations between Armenians and xxxs and has a very poisoning effect. It is not something to be thrown around carelessly. As to Ara Baliozian (in response to this point) saying that it is 'Tashnak propaganda', I will point out that the story of Talaat's Jewish origin, plus that of the majority of the founders (sic) of the Young Turks was prominently featured in "Loussapatz", a Hnchakian organ right in AB's backyard a few months ago. In this article, the Rothschilds were represented as the bankrollers of the Young Turks! I would appreciate any light, rather than heat, thrown on this subject. Are Armenian patriots really willing to trash Hans Morgenthau, Franz Werkel, Raphael Lemkin and many contemporary Jewish intellectuals who are indispensable supporters of the veracity of their/our version of history? Let's think again. . .

Yes Morgenthau the father was indeed a very sympathetic man towards Armenians and what they went through and so was Morgenthau's son, who has been honored by Armenia's government. Indeed Franz Werfel as well as Raphael Lemkin were also very kind and very sympathetic kind men. It was Raphael Lemkin who coined the Genocide word having in mind the Armenian Genocide. However, there was a series of long articles written by an English historian just about three years ago on the Armenian Forums about Talaat Pasha and his crew being Zionists. Many others also talked about this in here and in other Armenian Forums since then. You have to go and search for it and then you tell us what to believe in.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Friday, November 20, 2009
**********************************
ON REPETITION
*******************************
Advertisements and propaganda
appeal to our lowest instincts
and they thrive on repetition.
Do I repeat myself?
Why shouldn't I?
If repetition works for the devil,
it can work for Jesus,
which is what Martin Luther said
when he adapted drinking songs to church hymns.
*
CRITICS
*********************
To subscribe to a belief system
means to reject all others
as aberrations, deviations and heresies.
To say I am against criticism
is also criticism.
*
INFANTILE CRITICISM
**************************************
Because I write against prejudice,
I am accused of being prejudiced.
Because I write against subservience and ignorance,
I am accused of both transgressions.
The offspring of perennial victims,
I am accused of being on the side of victimizers.
Because I refuse to be a dupe,
I am told I am a dupe of enemy propaganda.
I call this type of criticism
tit-for-tat, senile, or infantile criticism.
*
LIES
*********************
What is the biggest Armenian lie?
That Armenians are honest.
What is the dumbest Armenian lie?
That Armenians are smart.
#

[ArmSurvival]

Re: elegy

I would like to ask Anoush if she has any concrete evidence that Talaat Pasha was born a xxx (other than his being from Salonika and having taught in a xxxish school), or is this just an unexamined and unverified tradition passed along from generation to generation? (I've also heard that he was a Gypsy.) This is a very serious matter because it touches on contemporary relations between Armenians and xxxs and has a very poisoning effect. It is not something to be thrown around carelessly. As to Ara Baliozian (in response to this point) saying that it is 'Tashnak propaganda', I will point out that the story of Talaat's xxxish origin, plus that of the majority of the founders (sic) of the Young Turks was prominently featured in "Loussapatz", a Hnchakian organ right in AB's backyard a few months ago. In this article, the Rothschilds were represented as the bankrollers of the Young Turks! I would appreciate any light, rather than heat, thrown on this subject.

From what I've read Talaat's ancestry was Gypsy and Bosniak, although it does not rule out the fact he could have been a Donmeh. J ews, especially Donmehs, are a cult, not a national or ethnic or racial group. I don't think your average Bosniak or Gypsy in the Ottoman Empire would be teaching at an Israelite school while having close personal and professional relationships with other high-profile Donmeh Zionists. Even if Talaat was in fact just a Bosniak, his relationaships and actions made him a puppet of Donmeh Zionist elites.

Talaat was an important figure, but there were more powerful players who were not advertised as the #1 man in the Ottoman Empire like Talaat was. One of those powerful players was Emmanuel Carasso, a member of the influential J ewish banking family. He helped finance the Young Turk movement and provided them safe haven in his freemason lodges in Salonika, basically fostering and nurturing the Young Turks so they could carry out their revolution. Its interesting to note that the Young Turk elite, even though mostly J ewish, painted themselves as die-hard Pan-Turkists. It gets more interesting when you realize that Pan-Turkism itself was concieved just a couple of decades prior to the Young Turks by, of all people, a Hungarian J ew named Arminius Vambery. Vambery had extensive contacts with Ottoman Sultans and with Theodore Herzl, founder of modern Zionism. I refuse to believe this is all just a coincidence.

Don't take it from me. If you research this topic on your own, you will find a wealth of resources (even Zionist resources) which attest to the J ewish makeup of the Young Turk elite.

Are Armenian patriots really willing to trash Hans Morgenthau, Franz Werkel, Raphael Lemkin and many contemporary xxxish intellectuals who are indispensable supporters of the veracity of their/our version of history? Let's think again. . .

I don't promote hatred or intolerance of J ews, not only because it is a bad personal trait, but because you are right in that it would hurt our cause. But what you seem to be saying is, since a few J ews helped us after the fact of the genocide, we're supposed to keep silent about those J ews who played powerful roles in helping us become victims of genocide in the first place. I refuse to adhere to such thinking, because I don't treat J ews as one solid mass (there are many non-Zionist J ews as well as Zionist non-J ews, so lines can get blurred). More importantly, I don't want to create restrictions about what we can talk about and what we can and should research about our own history.

And no, the J ewish involvement does not absolve the Turks of their guilt. If they let a bunch of J ews rule in the name of Turks, then thats not our problem.

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

From what I've read Talaat's ancestry was Gypsy and Bosniak, although it does not rule out the fact he could have been a Donmeh. J ews, especially Donmehs, are a cult, not a national or ethnic or racial group. I don't think your average Bosniak or Gypsy in the Ottoman Empire would be teaching at an Israelite school while having close personal and professional relationships with other high-profile Donmeh Zionists. Even if Talaat was in fact just a Bosniak, his relationaships and actions made him a puppet of Donmeh Zionist elites.

Talaat was an important figure, but there were more powerful players who were not advertised as the #1 man in the Ottoman Empire like Talaat was. One of those powerful players was Emmanuel Carasso, a member of the influential J ewish banking family. He helped finance the Young Turk movement and provided them safe haven in his freemason lodges in Salonika, basically fostering and nurturing the Young Turks so they could carry out their revolution. Its interesting to note that the Young Turk elite, even though mostly J ewish, painted themselves as die-hard Pan-Turkists. It gets more interesting when you realize that Pan-Turkism itself was concieved just a couple of decades prior to the Young Turks by, of all people, a Hungarian J ew named Arminius Vambery. Vambery had extensive contacts with Ottoman Sultans and with Theodore Herzl, founder of modern Zionism. I refuse to believe this is all just a coincidence.

Don't take it from me. If you research this topic on your own, you will find a wealth of resources (even Zionist resources) which attest to the J ewish makeup of the Young Turk elite.




I don't promote hatred or intolerance of J ews, not only because it is a bad personal trait, but because you are right in that it would hurt our cause. But what you seem to be saying is, since a few J ews helped us after the fact of the genocide, we're supposed to keep silent about those J ews who played powerful roles in helping us become victims of genocide in the first place. I refuse to adhere to such thinking, because I don't treat J ews as one solid mass (there are many non-Zionist J ews as well as Zionist non-J ews, so lines can get blurred). More importantly, I don't want to create restrictions about what we can talk about and what we can and should research about our own history.

Thank you for your valid answers ArmSurvival. This is most of the information I have also read about. That Emmanuel Carusso was the head of the Doenme Zionist Jews who had the most important role in educating the young turks and yes they were practicing and educating Talaat and other Jews in Salonika who played the most substantial role in exterminating practically all Armenians in turkey.

Indeed I agree with you that we must not create restrictions about what we can and cannot talk about the truthfulness of what transpired in our history and that we should further research and find out the truth about a very important part of our history (the Armenian Genocide).

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Saturday, November 21, 2009
**********************************
TO MY CRITICS
*******************************
If you have irrefutable evidence that suggests I am wrong,
then I must be wrong and I plead guilty as charged.
If, on the other hand, your evidence is based
on hearsay, propaganda, or a belief system,
then I suggest it is suspect
and therefore inadmissible.
*
Belief systems are infallible only to their dupes.
*
Knowledge based on propaganda
(and the favorite medium of all belief systems is propaganda )
is worse than ignorance.
*
When belief systems speak in terms of certainties,
they lie. And because they lie,
we have heresies, holy wars, and jihads
all of which operate like licenses
to commit crimes against humanity
in the name of an idol parading as God Almighty.
*
In a biography of Churchill I read today that
one of his favorite mottoes when in trouble was:
KBO = Keep Buggering On.
Perhaps that’s what I have been doing all along too
but didn’t know what to call it.
#

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

p.s. on Talaat:
i have read somewhere that he was also part-armenian.
what if he was?
since when all armenians are supposed to be angels?
we have our share of sh*ts
as surely as any tribe, nation, or race, including xxxs and turks.

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

From what I've read Talaat's ancestry was Gypsy and Bosniak, although it does not rule out the fact he could have been a Donmeh. J ews, especially Donmehs, are a cult, not a national or ethnic or racial group. I don't think your average Bosniak or Gypsy in the Ottoman Empire would be teaching at an Israelite school while having close personal and professional relationships with other high-profile Donmeh Zionists. Even if Talaat was in fact just a Bosniak, his relationaships and actions made him a puppet of Donmeh Zionist elites.

Talaat was an important figure, but there were more powerful players who were not advertised as the #1 man in the Ottoman Empire like Talaat was. One of those powerful players was Emmanuel Carasso, a member of the influential J ewish banking family. He helped finance the Young Turk movement and provided them safe haven in his freemason lodges in Salonika, basically fostering and nurturing the Young Turks so they could carry out their revolution. Its interesting to note that the Young Turk elite, even though mostly J ewish, painted themselves as die-hard Pan-Turkists. It gets more interesting when you realize that Pan-Turkism itself was concieved just a couple of decades prior to the Young Turks by, of all people, a Hungarian J ew named Arminius Vambery. Vambery had extensive contacts with Ottoman Sultans and with Theodore Herzl, founder of modern Zionism. I refuse to believe this is all just a coincidence.

Don't take it from me. If you research this topic on your own, you will find a wealth of resources (even Zionist resources) which attest to the J ewish makeup of the Young Turk elite.




I don't promote hatred or intolerance of J ews, not only because it is a bad personal trait, but because you are right in that it would hurt our cause. But what you seem to be saying is, since a few J ews helped us after the fact of the genocide, we're supposed to keep silent about those J ews who played powerful roles in helping us become victims of genocide in the first place. I refuse to adhere to such thinking, because I don't treat J ews as one solid mass (there are many non-Zionist J ews as well as Zionist non-J ews, so lines can get blurred). More importantly, I don't want to create restrictions about what we can talk about and what we can and should research about our own history.

And no, the J ewish involvement does not absolve the Turks of their guilt. If they let a bunch of J ews rule in the name of Turks, then thats not our problem.

===========================================

This is my initial and partial reply, after which I will take a long break and try to come back with some facts. I would have to categorize your reply in the heat and not the light department. I was hoping you would mention some of your sources, but you chose not to. I hope they are not some of the wild Brother Nathanael Kapner type of web pages, but writings by true scholars. Those are the ones I will be looking into and hopefully be prepared to share with you for your benefit at the end of the process. Until then a couple of points: it is patently absurd to call the ruthless and cunning
Talaat Pasha the puppet of anyone. He was anything but a puppet. And your claim that he was a Dönmeh is not proven. Second point: Emmanuel Carasso opposed Zionist settlement in Palestine. Third point: the term "Zionist Dönmeh" has no basis in scholarship. Only virulently anti-Hria propaganda makes use of that term. Despite your disclaimer about how unworthy it is to promote prejudice against Hrias, that
prejudice, including the notion that one or two Hrias have almost superhuman powers to shape events and overwhelm everyone else, is the glue that holds your version of events together. Yes, Vambery knew Herzl and tried to get him an introduction to the Sultan but failed, one source suggesting that he just wanted Herzl's money. Vambery was obviously an adventurer and opportunist. There were many in those days, on all sides.
Fourth point, you grossly undervalue and are almost dismissive of the profound contributions of people like Werfel, Lemkin and many others too numerous to list here who put blood and sweat into their work for the truth.
It's not only bad or unwise "because it would hurt our cause" (which it most definitely would and probably is doing right now), but because it shows complete blindness to the full scope and depth of what these folks have done for us without our asking them to. Think about it.