Evolution and Religion

[sleuth]

guys if you belive that we evolve from phatogenic bacteria so you are nothing more than can of worms...it's easy arvest to deny the fact of divine intelligenc that controls evrything and univers,that controls us and frys your little kiwi brain...truth is inside you...but some maggots just can't handle the truth...

[Anonymouse]

In the introduction to the 1971 edition of Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species, L. Harrison Matthews summed up the obvious when he wrote:

Some experiments are said to demonstrate evolution in action; those on industrial melanism in moths are a well-known example…. The peppered moth experiments beautifully demonstrate natural selection or survival of the fittest. But they do not show evolution in progress. For however the population may alter in their content of light, intermediate or dark forms, all the moths remain from beginning to end Biston betularia (Darwin, p. xi).

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by ckBejug Ohh Mousey here we go again, right? It is certain in my mind that you will never see the other side of this argument because you are always adamant that you are right, no matter how much proof is presented that shows otherwise. You will never even slightly give in to the whole idea of evolution, not because your mind is not bright enough to comprehend the whole thing, believe me I know by now that it is, but because you want to see the whole damn thing replicated in some kind of cut and dry repeatable experiment in a lab or even out there in nature, and that's not going to happen!

Some thoughts on evolution... The FACTS are the fossils, patterns of organic diversity, and DNA. The THEORY of evolution is what explains them. Just as the retrograde motion of the planets, Venus’ phases, and variations in planetary brightness are among the facts the THEORY that Earth revolves around the sun explains. Or do you not believe that either?

About evolution and God... Give me a break with all this WHY did things turn out the way they did questioning, obviously that's not what evolution is the explanation for. Evolution tells us how life came to be where it is, but it does not say why. You can go ahead and have a belief in God and still agree with the theory of evolution because evolution doesn't disprove the idea that God created the world and the life in it. Evolution ony contradicts the literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis, and how many of you are actually reading that as an exact historical account anyway??

Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did. But, the fact of the matter is there ARE distinct paths, and the theory of evolution is how we explain them. Macroevolution is studied within comparative biochemical and genetic studies, comparative developmental biology, patterns of biogeography, comparative morphology and anatomy and studies of the fossil record. If you know where to look and look with an open mind you'll see that there is tons of proof out there and believe me even if you can come up with a million arguments about anything I say, you wont be able to argue against the solid proof. Unless of course you just say well God created all that exactly that way, it was all his doing, the tiniest randomest most miniscule similarities we find are all results of Gods hand creating everything and scientists are just wasting their time trying to figure out the delicate intricacies of how life works and how it came to be what it is because, well, God did it. If you're just going to sit there and demand that that's the truth, you're never going to actually listen to what others have to say and maybe even start to understand the truth that is in the theory of evolution. There are too many similarities between species, almost exact portions of DNA, new discoveries are made every single day. So what is your explanation, God put it there? it's too easy to say that, isn't it?

There is even evidence that over 15 different species of humans have existed over time, and that during the period of 3 to 1 million years ago almost 10 different species of humans existed at the same time. The evidence for evolution is stacking up to the point that to doubt the overwhelming mountain of proof is really to be dumb and insist on turning a blind eye to the whole damn thing.

Since we're such a fan of quoting around here... read this, it's an OBSERVED proof of evolution. And YES, it's evolution because the moths did not simply ADAPT to their surroundings, their genetic make-up changed, and they became different species, unable to interbreed. How do you explain that away as easily as you seem to do everything else, mousey??

That's all..... Of course there's more, but my hands hurt from typing and I don't think it's necessary to say any much more since I know we're all pretty bull-headed around here and basically our arguments all just come full-circle and we end up each of us saying our own thing and pretty much getting nowhere....

There is a good argument against the moth that is so often touted as evidence of Darwinian evolution.

http://www2.gasou.edu/facstaff/etmcmull/MOTH.htm

http://www.apologeticspress.org/inthenews/2003/itn-03-36.htm

[ckBejug]

Ohh Mousey here we go again, right? It is certain in my mind that you will never see the other side of this argument because you are always adamant that you are right, no matter how much proof is presented that shows otherwise. You will never even slightly give in to the whole idea of evolution, not because your mind is not bright enough to comprehend the whole thing, believe me I know by now that it is, but because you want to see the whole damn thing replicated in some kind of cut and dry repeatable experiment in a lab or even out there in nature, and that's not going to happen!

Some thoughts on evolution... The FACTS are the fossils, patterns of organic diversity, and DNA. The THEORY of evolution is what explains them. Just as the retrograde motion of the planets, Venus’ phases, and variations in planetary brightness are among the facts the THEORY that Earth revolves around the sun explains. Or do you not believe that either?

About evolution and God... Give me a break with all this WHY did things turn out the way they did questioning, obviously that's not what evolution is the explanation for. Evolution tells us how life came to be where it is, but it does not say why. You can go ahead and have a belief in God and still agree with the theory of evolution because evolution doesn't disprove the idea that God created the world and the life in it. Evolution ony contradicts the literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis, and how many of you are actually reading that as an exact historical account anyway??

Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did. But, the fact of the matter is there ARE distinct paths, and the theory of evolution is how we explain them. Macroevolution is studied within comparative biochemical and genetic studies, comparative developmental biology, patterns of biogeography, comparative morphology and anatomy and studies of the fossil record. If you know where to look and look with an open mind you'll see that there is tons of proof out there and believe me even if you can come up with a million arguments about anything I say, you wont be able to argue against the solid proof. Unless of course you just say well God created all that exactly that way, it was all his doing, the tiniest randomest most miniscule similarities we find are all results of Gods hand creating everything and scientists are just wasting their time trying to figure out the delicate intricacies of how life works and how it came to be what it is because, well, God did it. If you're just going to sit there and demand that that's the truth, you're never going to actually listen to what others have to say and maybe even start to understand the truth that is in the theory of evolution. There are too many similarities between species, almost exact portions of DNA, new discoveries are made every single day. So what is your explanation, God put it there? it's too easy to say that, isn't it?

There is even evidence that over 15 different species of humans have existed over time, and that during the period of 3 to 1 million years ago almost 10 different species of humans existed at the same time. The evidence for evolution is stacking up to the point that to doubt the overwhelming mountain of proof is really to be dumb and insist on turning a blind eye to the whole damn thing.

Since we're such a fan of quoting around here... read this, it's an OBSERVED proof of evolution. And YES, it's evolution because the moths did not simply ADAPT to their surroundings, their genetic make-up changed, and they became different species, unable to interbreed. How do you explain that away as easily as you seem to do everything else, mousey??

The English moth, Biston betularia, is a frequently cited example of observed evolution. In this moth there are two color morphs, light and dark. H. B. D. Kettlewell found that dark moths constituted less than 2% of the population prior to 1848. The frequency of the dark morph increased in the years following. By 1898, the 95% of the moths in Manchester and other highly industrialized areas were of the dark type. Their frequency was less in rural areas. The moth population changed from mostly light colored moths to mostly dark colored moths. The moths' color was primarily determined by a single gene. [gene: a hereditary unit] So, the change in frequency of dark colored moths represented a change in the gene pool. [gene pool: the set all of genes in a population] This change was, by definition, evolution, and thus the moth started out as one species and evolved into two distinct species with different genes, unable to interbreed.

That's all..... Of course there's more, but my hands hurt from typing and I don't think it's necessary to say any much more since I know we're all pretty bull-headed around here and basically our arguments all just come full-circle and we end up each of us saying our own thing and pretty much getting nowhere....

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Of course you can follow the teachings of Christ and believe he is the son of the one true God without being religious. Did I ever say otherwise?

You did not, but I am trying to hit on something inherent within the human psyche that is a powerful tool for control, whether by the State, or 500 years ago by the Church.

[loseyourname]

Of course you can follow the teachings of Christ and believe he is the son of the one true God without being religious. Did I ever say otherwise?

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Yes, those groups are acting religious. It is not their atheism that defines their actions as religious; it is their grouping and recruiting efforts.

Aha, bravo, now you have touched on something very importante. So if I believe in God, and I am a Christian, yet I do not adhere to Churchianity, can I be religous?

You do realize that we can apply this argument to the State and mass democracy as well, do you not?

[loseyourname]

Yes, those groups are acting religious. It is not their atheism that defines their actions as religious; it is their grouping and recruiting efforts.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Really? Atheists are out burning crosses and crashing planes into buildings to glorify their object of worship?

Where did I say that? Being bullheaded in that your convictions are right is no different than a bible thumper asserting the same thing.

Thus when I see Atheist clubs and brochures handed out on my school campus to come join the Atheism society or whatever it is, one can make an argument that they themselves are organized like a traditional religious group is.

How many times have evolutionists tried to insist that their dogma is not based on faith, and how many times have atheists tried to prove that they are not a "religion". Well, one can engage in wishful thinking, but from an outside birds eye view, things seem different to the unphased mind.

[loseyourname]

Really? Atheists are out burning crosses and crashing planes into buildings to glorify their object of worship?