Historicity of the Jewish Holocaust

[patlajan]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Which do not exist and don't show gas chambers.

They don't exist and they don't show gas chambers, that's convinient. Unfortunatly for you, you can see them when you visit Auschwitz. Not to mention the 2,000 eye witness accounts all saying the same thing. They must have had one large mass halucination.

And the "Wannsee Protocol" which sets a plan for the "final solution" of over 11 million jews broken down by country. Here's a copy for you:http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

[Darorinag]

Let's take a look at the diary, shall we?

September 1, 1942
Wrote off to Berlin for officers' cap, belt, suspenders. In afternoon attended block gassing with Zyklon B against lice.

September 2, 1942
For the first time, at 3:00 A.M. outside, attended a special action. Dante's Inferno seems to me almost a comedy compared to this. They don't call Auschwitz the camp of annihilation for nothing!

September 3, 1942
For the first time, came down with the diarrhea with vomiting and colic-type attacks of pain which have hit everyone here in the camp. It cannot be the water as I have not drunk a drop. Also the bread cannot be responsible, as those who have eaten only white bread (special diets) have also come down with it. Most probably the reason is the unhealthy continental and very dry tropical climate with its dust and masses of vermin (flies).


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Masses of vermin (flies) - could that be what is being "destroyed"? How sure can we be in our interpretation? What does Sonderaktion really refer to? Why was it used in other instances by other Germans to refer to actions done by inmates before Christmas leave?

In addition,

September 5, 1942
"In the morning attended a special action from the women's concentration camp (Muslims*); the most dreadful of horrors. Master-Sergeant Thilo (troop doctor) was right when he said to me that this is the anus mundi. In the evening towards 8:00 attended another special action from Holland. Because of the special rations they get a fifth of a liter of schnapps, 5 cigarettes, 100 g salami and bread, the men all clamor to take part in such actions. Today and tomorrow (Sunday) work."

The Auschwitz Kalendarium (which relied on a statement made by Dr. Kremer during the trial in Cracow) includes the number of women for this mysterious "operation" as 800.

Auschwitz State Museum claims that the reported number of deaths in the "Sterbebuch" for the month of Sept. 1942 is divided as follows:

September 1 86
September 2 43
September 3 40
September 4 48
September 5 24
September 6 19
September 7 38
September 8 63
September 9 12
September 10 68
September 11 19
September 12 12
September 13 73
September 14 78
September 15 23
September 27 127

How's THAT for Mr. Kremer's very reliable confessions?

[Darorinag]

Originally posted by patlajan They don't exist and they don't show gas chambers, that's convinient. Unfortunatly for you, you can see them when you visit Auschwitz. Not to mention the 2,000 eye witness accounts all saying the same thing. They must have had one large mass halucination.

Saying the same thing? Check your sources twice. Many many contradictions in eyewitness accounts, including scientific impossibilities. And why would you need to forge pictures if you have the support of 2000 eyewitness accounts? And no, they don't say the same thing. For one, how could they have known how the gas chambers worked if they were only seeing it from outside? They claimed that the gas came from the showerheads.....

And the "Wannsee Protocol" which sets a plan for the "final solution" of over 11 million jews broken down by country. Here's a copy for you:http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

And that proves what, exactly? Nowhere does it mention extermination of jews. Read before posting.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by patlajan They don't exist and they don't show gas chambers, that's convinient. Unfortunatly for you, you can see them when you visit Auschwitz. Not to mention the 2,000 eye witness accounts all saying the same thing. They must have had one large mass halucination.

And the "Wannsee Protocol" which sets a plan for the "final solution" of over 11 million jews broken down by country. Here's a copy for you:http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html

You can't see them as they supposedly were, you can only see a Soviet "reconstruction". As far as eyewitness accounts, they are contradictory and memory changes, fades, and is influenced by many factors over time, one being anti-German bias.

[Darorinag]

It's almost funny how many "witnesses" were pretty much fantasizing about it and fictionalizing it... Elie Wiesel a prime example. He was caught with his lies more than once. And this coming from a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate....

[Anonymouse]

The thing between the Armenians, Ukrainians, Cambodians, or Rwandans, is their claims due not defy logic or science.

[Darorinag]

2 September 1942: This morning, at 3 o'clock, I was present OUTSIDE for the first time at a SPECIAL ACTION. Compared to that, Dante's Inferno appears TO ME ALMOST LIKE a comedy. It is not without reason that Auschwitz is called THE camp of THE ANNIHILATION!

A special action (gassing?) OUTSIDE? Hmmm... Makes one think, eh?

Note the use of the word ANNIHILATION - this could refer to (and in fact, if it were gas chambers, it would've been the word EXTERMINATION, which it wasn't) the inmates who were ill with typhus - an epidemic. Again, the meaning is not clear, and therefore, this is not a "proof." It could go either way.

And what does the expression "anus mundi" refer to?

Perhaps dysentery?

And why would he not use the word Zyklon B to refer to those Sonderaktions as well? He mentioned it in a previous entry.... why would he not mention it again? If his expressions are so obviously referring to extermination acts, what would've kept him from using the term Zyklon B? Surely he wasn't thinking that the Allies would be reading his diary and using it against him later on?

Moreover, he claims to have sat in the car while the alleged gassings took place. How could he have described it as "terrible scenes"?

Moreover, Miss Glaser (Dr. Kremer's housekeeper's daughter) testified in defense of Dr. Kremer by bringing several postcards he had sent. In one, he says:

"I don't really know for certain, but I expect, however, that I'll be able to be in Münster before 1 December, and thus finally turn my back on this hell of Auschwitz where, in addition to the typhoid, and so on, typhus has once again broken out strongly..."

Sounds like Dante's Inferno?

[patlajan]

Originally posted by Anonymouse You can't see them as they supposedly were, you can only see a Soviet "reconstruction". As far as eyewitness accounts, they are contradictory and memory changes, fades, and is influenced by many factors over time, one being anti-German bias.

According to your standards the Genocide never happened. If 2,000 Armenians were giving eye witness accounts would you question them? I think not.

[Darorinag]

Originally posted by patlajan According to your standards the Genocide never happened. If 2,000 Armenians were giving eye witness accounts would you question them? I think not.

Why would we not? Wouldn't that make us hypocrites? Truth is truth. Personal affiliation has nothing to do with it. David Cole is Jewish, and he's a revisionist (or he was, prior to life threats by the JDL). It's about the truth, not ethnic/racial affiliation.

And that still doesn't prove that it did happen...

[Fadix]

Ignoramus, how deep more you want to fall? I am telling you go READ the reports before coming here and playing your smart. The plasters taken by Cracow have nothing to do with the plaster wall that Rudolf supposes have existed. Rudolf supposes that a plaster wall which increased the PH was responsible of the reaction when he compared with his Church theses. THERE WAS NO SUCH PLASTER WALL that ever existed. How far will you show your ignorance Dan one just wonder? Now the next time come back after you have read the reports because obviously you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

“And that means what? That there was destruction in the camps? Destruction of what? Lice? Dead bodies? Ants? Fish? Do you realize that you are interpreting it as you want?”

What a bonehead, it is not said there was destruction in the camp, but THE CAMP OF DESTRUCTION, in this cases it WAS NOT the word “darnieder” which was used like he used to define the destruction of typhus, but the later word “Vernichtung.” I guess my German friend whom has German as his mother thong will be more credible then you when he read it and told me that there was no any rational reason why Kremer would use to word “Vernichtung” when he was using the word “darnieder,” unless he was using it as “extermination” as the sole reason why the camp existed.

“Both were used. Even exterminationists admit that the word sonderaktion was used; they claim that the word "sonderaktion" means extermination. Go read more exterminationist material for more about this. ”

Hey clown, the word "sonderaktion" is believed to be used for the gassing campagn(as the said “special campagne”) and not as a synonymous for extermination, use a German English dictionary or find a German translator before farting a so-called argument from the other side in order to claim having debunked it.

“So if Kremer lied, what makes you sure that he didn't lie in the first place, in his so called, obviously "evidential" diary? If Kramer is so unreliable and contradictory, how can you even take any of what he said or wrote to be "proof"? Double standards? I mean, even if he wrote clearly that there were gassings, would you believe ANY of his claims after he contradicted himself (as you claim?), if you were a neutral viewer? Seems like there was a double standard, Faddi boy. And double standards hardly qualify as absolute proof. ”

Are you really that idiot or are you doing it on purposes Dan? I was not referring to him contracting himself, but rather his admission contradicting the interpretation by revisionists regarding the bunker, Revisionists claims that it was just a cleaning of the bunker, but Kremer clarify it when he refers to the women that were sent to be gassed, that contradict revisionists’ claims.

“Oh? I thought you were going to "send me to school" with your so-called knowledge? Damn... I'm disappointed now... ”

Shall you go read it or shall I post it here to embarrass you ever further Danny boy?

“Personal diaries, dear lad, can be highly interpretative. They are not proofs that the gassings took place. Moreover, this seems to be a very neatly coded diary, it seems to me... heh... if you've seen the movie Chicago, you will know the parody about the diary as "proof."”

We shall see if they are so interpretative.


“Particularly unpleasant was the gassing of the emaciated women from the women's camp, who were generally known as 'Muslims'. I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women. I cannot say how big the group was. When I got close to the bunker [I saw] them sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behaviour of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they begged and pleaded to the SS men to spare them their lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote in my diary on 5 September 1942: 'The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharführer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this is the anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world. I used this image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.”

This is a clarification during his testimony where he refers to his dairy September 5 writing which you quoted:

"In the morning attended a special action from the women's concentration camp (Muslims*); the most dreadful of horrors. Master-Sergeant Thilo (troop doctor) was right when he said to me that this is the anus mundi. In the evening towards 8:00 attended another special action from Holland. Because of the special rations they get a fifth of a liter of schnapps, 5 cigarettes, 100 g salami and bread, the men all clamor to take part in such actions. Today and tomorrow (Sunday) work."

People might ask why the word Muslim here is used, “Muslims” was a term used by the NAZI to define those condemned to die.

“A special action (gassing?) OUTSIDE? Hmmm... Makes one think, eh?”

Using Flaurisson fraud claims Danny? Danny boy, the gassing in question happened outside in one the two Auschwitz gassing bunkers because the Krematorium was closed in July 1942 to be reopened for March 1943, while the “special operation” here is reported in September, when the “inside” gas chamber was closed to be replaced by two “outside” bunkers. Kremer use the word bunkers and outside because the gassing during that period were done outside. The fact that you have used this stupid argument shows us how you are after the “truth.”

"Note the use of the word ANNIHILATION - this could refer to (and in fact, if it were gas chambers, it would've been the word EXTERMINATION, which it wasn't) the inmates who were ill with typhus - an epidemic. Again, the meaning is not clear, and therefore, this is not a "proof." It could go either way. "

Ehe ? Danny boy, he uses the word “darnieder” for typhus and epidemic and NOT “Vernichtung.” So no it could not have been either way.

"And why would he not use the word Zyklon B to refer to those Sonderaktions as well? He mentioned it in a previous entry.... why would he not mention it again? If his expressions are so obviously referring to extermination acts, what would've kept him from using the term Zyklon B? Surely he wasn't thinking that the Allies would be reading his diary and using it against him later on? "

Read his diary you will understand why… of course if you start quoting materials taken from revisionist sites you won’t find your answer. Carbon monoxide was used as well.

“Moreover, he claims to have sat in the car while the alleged gassings took place. How could he have described it as "terrible scenes"?”

You are making that up.

"I don't really know for certain, but I expect, however, that I'll be able to be in Münster before 1 December, and thus finally turn my back on this hell of Auschwitz where, in addition to the typhoid, and so on, typhus has once again broken out strongly..."

Clown, it is OBVIOUS that the camp typhoid and typhus was all over the place, given the way that the NAZI were treating their prisoners, those diseases are spread because of VERY BAD conditions, and they are spread as well from cadavers, excrements… this is only further evidences that the NAZI were treating their prisoners like animals.