question by a non-armenian.

[Crimson Glow]

Well I suppose its too much to hope for any kind of intelligent response on this fourm since most of those who could think a bit and make some worthwhile posts have seemingly been banned or went away on their own (Anileve, Baron Dants, Dusken, etc). I can't at all understand how the likes of a Baron Dants was banned from this forum - others too...completely baffling...

Dants got banned?? WTF??

[CatWoman]

guys that was a stormy entry for me ,

ya alright turks are a--holes and armenians are cool .

I sense sarcasm... Yes turks are ass holes, but I don't know where you got the impression that we are trying to say Armenians are cool?

and should every American Indian and Black in this country hate whitey? (certainly as much reason to as we to hate Turks...)

WHAT? That's a joke right? Whta's the same? I wouldn't even put them in the same category. As far as Native Americans go, they've lost mainly lands not people, definitely not 1.5 million! With blacks, I know many black men were lynched or burned alive before 1900s, very sad, but again they mainly suffered from discrimination laws, black codes, etc. not massacre of 1.5 million of their people, besides they don't hate whites NOW because whites made an effort to change things to better. Obviously a black American now isn't being treated the same. But correct me if I'm wrong, all Turkey has done is deny the genocide. Hasn't taken one stingle step towards somehow making it up to us. So please, do not compare what happened to Armenians in Ottoman Empire to Native Americans or Black.

and the issue of religion - per se - was a minor one - at best a smokescreen and a tool - and not at all the motivating factor in the Genocide...again - please do some reading on your own and impress us with your educatability...

I’m interested to know what other reasons are, If you know, please do share. I mean besides the fact that Ottoman Empire was scared of Armenians uniting with Russians against them and Germany in WWI, but actually the reason behind that was Christianity as well. If Armenians were Muslims, they would never want to help Christian Russians against Muslim Turks, so the ties between Armenians and Russians has to do with Christianity. But the fact remains Armenians were massacred withouth even siding with Russians. Also the 'Young Turk' wanted Ottoman Empire based on the principles of Islam. You suggest her to do some some research, but she came to us for help and your reply wasn't much informative, so if you know of other reasons enlighten us! Cause I think Christianity was the main reason.

[Siggie]

Dants got banned?? WTF??

He asked to be removed.

[Thai-Samurai]

ok the whole tech support and telemarketer thing was a joke, you can't deny the fact that half of all telemarketers have an indian accent. And Dell's entire tech support is in India. etc etc. It was just a joke.
You guys should've sensed my sense of humor when i started out saying, on "behalf of every Armenian."

And I'm totally into Bushido. I bushido every day for your information.

[winoman]

Catwomen - yes many Turks are a-holes (particularly when it comes to the Genocide issue)...though you can't really say that we are free of them ourselves no? And in fact there are many very cool Turkish people - some of whom (and I know its a very few) have quite a sophisticated understanding of the circumstances of the Genocide - two I know even call for reperations and return of lands! yeah - and not just in private but publically on the interenet in dicussions that included other Turks. But OK - from the perspective of most Armenians Turks are A-holes - and I can understand and appreciate that...but I would only again say to make sure you treat people as individuals and not just as part of some group...you might be surprised what you find sometimes...

Regarding American Indians and Blacks...well...you exhibit narrowness of perspective and information that is typical of many people (and I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh - not meaning too - I'm sure your an OK person and you seem as if your open minded and willing/interested to learn - so you have much going for you - and I apologize if my posting style offends your sensibilities - not my intent - don't know how to say what I want to say - in this brief of form - etc...anyway. Yes - North American Indians (a friend of mine resigned from the staf of the director of the new Museaum of the American Indian in Washington BTW for whitewashing this issue..)...what you (and most) don't know is quite on a par with the ignorance that most Turks have in regards to what their ancestors/predecessors did to the Armenians. And much like the Armenian Genocide its very difficult to know exact numbers (and of course no censuses or such...) - but estimates range from 5 million to 18 million! Yes - 18 million in North America - prior to the comming of the Europeans...by the end of the 19th Century the number of Indians in North America was 250,000 (and this is a very accepted fugure) - so you do the math...and its clear that much of this was deliberate Genocide. Let it sink in a bit.

I have to go now - but if you look into the ravages of the (European/New World fueled) African slave trade you will see somewhat similar (though lesser magnitude) results (and like all Genocides the effects continue to negatively affect things over there even to this day). I'm not sure if you read (serious stuff) - but I would suggest - just for a bit of an empathetic eye opener - that you rent the movie Armistad...as we have not yet even touched on the personal violation that was slavery in itself.

I would be happy to address some of the issues surrounding our Genocide as well if you are really interested - but the fact that we were Christians was in fact a very small (negligible one might argue) part in regards to reasons for the Genocide. Most Young Turks were (essentially) atheists BTW - and certainly were not at all heard line Islamists. No time now - must go. Cheers.

[anup_j_j]

I sense sarcasm... Yes turks are ass holes, but I don't know where you got the impression that we are trying to say Armenians are cool?

no,i mean armenians are really cool ,nobody can survive such a hostile environment (surrounded by muslim funda countries )for so long and still u guys did . there has to be something special.

[CatWoman]

Winoman, no offense taken…

About Indian Americans, I know what happened to them but I didn’t know the amount was 5million, there was always a percentage mentioned in my readings not a real number. But don’t forget, many of them died from diseases Europeans brought as well, just because they perished doesn’t necessarily mean they were killed. I know what whites did to their buffalo in order to make them starve and I’ll never forget what Sherman said to his army “the more we kill this year, the less we’ll have to kill next year” or something like that, but again many died from diseases as well. I also think there aren't many natives left to carry the grudge, there are what like 2 million of them? So obviously you won’t notice their hatred, even if it exists, as much as with a population four times their size, Armenians.

Turks aren‘t just ass holes when it comes to the genocide, they’ve killed many Kurds and Greeks as well, and have occupied/destroyed almost half of Cyprus since 1974. They’ve always been the aggressors. So Armenians aren’t the only ones who don’t like Turks. Also, just because a couple of your friends are nice or whatever, doesn’t mean anything. There are 70 million of them and apparently not so nice.

I’ll repeat, the reason blacks or natives don’t have as much hatred towards whites is because whites have made an effort to change things for the better and have accepted the fact that they’ve done some horrible things to them. It’s mentioned in history books and people learn about it. Same with Jews and Germans. But our case is completely different. Hahaha about two months ago I read an article in which a Turkish 'historian' claimed that Armenians were the ones killing Turks and only 80,000 Armenians died and mostly from diseases but they killed 500,000 Turks (the article). Now how can you compare our case to Natives’ or Blacks’ ? How can we not have ill feelings towards these liers?

no,i mean armenians are really cool ,nobody can survive such a hostile environment (surrounded by muslim funda countries )for so long and still u guys did . there has to be something special.

Okie dokie pokie, if you insist...

[Crimson Glow]

About Indian Americans, I know what happened to them but I didn’t know the amount was 5million, there was always a percentage mentioned in my readings not a real number.

Hmmmm......not unlike the Turks lack of information/inaccuracies in their text books and schooling. Precisely the point Winoman was trying to raise. Where exactly did you think an entire country's population went? Crammed into the handfull of reservations they were left with? Just as when the Turks arguee only xx,xxx Armenians died. Did the other's spontanously warp into another parallel universe?? How do you account for the millions missing?

I’ll repeat, the reason blacks or natives don’t have as much hatred towards whites is because whites have made an effort to change things for the better and have accepted the fact that they’ve done some horrible things to them. It’s mentioned in history books and people learn about it.

Apparently, not enough mention in history books. Your text books give small, simple reflections that don't even come close to touching upon the true depth of destruction "we" caused them. Just the fact that you had no clue about the numbers suggests that the amount taught to us about the killing of these people is not much greater than what a Turk learns about the killing of Armenians. Breifly mentioning "something" happened should not be considered "history", and does not some how put their recognition worlds above our own.

I also think there aren't many natives left to carry the grudge, there are what like 2 million of them? So obviously you won’t notice their hatred, even if it exists, as much as with a population four times their size, Armenians.

This is a good example of why America hasn't done enough to make up for the past. The dwindling numbers of NA's left is due to decades of poor health, lack of education, and therefore, short life expectancy brought upon them by the LACK of America making things better for them. The same will happen to Armenia, which you can already see the initiation of. A group of people devestated, that crime gone unpunished, and no attempt to remedy the situation, leaving the decent into a downward spiral to continue. So...soon, there won't be enough Armenians left to carry the grudge?

The numbers aren't the issue. They certainly don't hurt, but it is a silly argument to say "there aren't enough ____ to make their hatred known". The simple, sad reality is, if it's in a government’s best interest to keep what they or another nation have done under wraps for international relations purposes, then they will keep your voice hushed, no matter HOW loud you think you are.

[CatWoman]

Hmmmm......not unlike the Turks lack of information/inaccuracies in their text books and schooling. Precisely the point Winoman was trying to raise. Where exactly did you think an entire country's population went? Crammed into the handfull of reservations they were left with? Just as when the Turks arguee only xx,xxx Armenians died. Did the other's spontanously warp into another parallel universe?? How do you account for the millions missing?

Well just so you know, I haven’t taken any NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY courses to know the details simply because I wasn’t interested but I read about some incidents such as the buffalo killings, sioux massacre, etc. in my general history classes; however, they do offer it at my school so it's out there, it‘s not like they‘re trying to hide anything like Turks, I just haven’t been interested, after all they can only cover so much in general American history classes… My point being, do they even mention the genocide at schools in Turkey for people who ARE interested? Also did you know that Turkish pressure forced removal of the Armenian genocide from German public school curriculum? Yeah this was 2 months ago, then they realized the removal was a mistake since it was their only example besides the holocaust and a month later it was back.. I can’t compare the U.S. government’s attitude towards the Indians NOW to that of Turkey’s.

Oh and should I get into the closed border and economic blockade?

The numbers aren't the issue. They certainly don't hurt, but it is a silly argument to say "there aren't enough ____ to make their hatred known". The simple, sad reality is, if it's in a government’s best interest to keep what they or another nation have done under wraps for international relations purposes, then they will keep your voice hushed, no matter HOW loud you think you are.

Well winoman was the one claiming that they don't hate the whitey as much as we hate turks, so there, maybe they do after all? And about the numbers, I don‘t know about you, but that makes sense to me... Won’t 8 persons scream be louder than 2’s? I think Natives have lost their lands and people but they’ve also assimilated, which was the plan. So since there is only 2 million of them left and 8 million Armenians, our hatred looks more severe. Again, the U.S. government’s attitude towards the Indians or blacks NOW and that of Turkey’s towards Armenians are incomparable.

[winoman]

Thanks Crimson Glow - well said - its clear that you understand - I was wondering if anyone here did.

Catwoman - I'm not sure where to begin. Let me try with the point that you mention - hate (shouldn't hate anyone BTW). Well my point was that it is certainly (pretty much) as legitimate (or at least in the same ballpark) for American Indians and American Blacks to hate whitey as it is for Armenians to hate Turks. I stand by that - though I aknowledge that Turks (officially/as a group) have perhaps done more to obsfucate the issue and have been much more directly and continually nasty towards us - but fundamentally each group - us, Native Americans and Africans were seriously abused , individually and as a group - (and please do check out the movie Armistad - great movie and it will give you some appreciation)...Africans were uprooted from their lands - from their families - and a great many died (easily millions I would imagine - thoguh don't know the numbers -not sure if anyone does...) under utterly horrible conditions and the American Indians - like us - were both slaughtered mercilessly and lost their lands - their nation - their heritage - their way of life. Yes a great deal of this was due to disease - but much was deliberate policy - beggining with the puritans in the 1600s (actually the Spanish in the 1400s..) to the Governer of California who as recently as the mid 1800s called for the complete extirmination of Indians in the state. Anyway...the issue of denial or more appropriatly not admitting or not making information available to citizens or what have you - well again - the Turks are not alone in this . One difference is that our (American) culture is prettty much an open society and its tough (for the gov't) to supress everything and our government and society is more mature and able to deal with the truth - where the Turks are stull caught up in their own paranoia. But both of our nations were esentially directly built on Genocide and stolen wealth. The Turks though always admired and feared the Armenians - and this continues where the Europeans looked down on the Indians (and Africans) as essentially worthless - lessor beings. The Turks still have a real fear that perhaps one day we might be succesful in revenge (and they should be...)...I really believe this...but its only part of their rational for wanting to deny all things Armenian (and that their nation has been built on such blood). Anyway I feel I've digressed. more later perhaps...