Socialism. your thoughts?

[ArmenianKid]

i never once attacked someone. thats winomans turf.

[Objectivist]

ArmenianKid, what is your reasoning behind believing that socialism is the correct form of government even when this religion of socialism has been proven unpractical time and time again?

[loseyourname]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the reponse is something along the lines of:

"Well, true Marxism has never been tried. While Maoism and Stalinism have certainly been discredited, there do exist semi-Utopias such as Sweden and Canada in which many markets have been successfully socialized, all for the better. There is no reason to think that socialism with communism cannot work."

That's generally what you hear from the last few Marxists. I'm surprised to find one in Michigan, though. I thought they were generally confined to Berkeley at this point.

[Anonymouse]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the reponse is something along the lines of:

"Well, true Marxism has never been tried. While Maoism and Stalinism have certainly been discredited, there do exist semi-Utopias such as Sweden and Canada in which many markets have been successfully socialized, all for the better. There is no reason to think that socialism with communism cannot work."

That's generally what you hear from the last few Marxists. I'm surprised to find one in Michigan, though. I thought they were generally confined to Berkeley at this point.

That actually made me laff because its very true.

And yes, having been to Berkeley several times I can attest to the fact that the streets are roaming with Marxists and aging hippies.

[ArmoBarbi]

Yosef can go to Berkeley maybe when he graduates high school.

Yosef, perfect systems don't work for imperfect beings. It is destined to fail no matter how we alter it, no matter what form we try, not because it is bad, but because we are not fit for such a society. I'm sorry to tell you...

[Objectivist]

Yosef, perfect systems don't work for imperfect beings.

Sorry, this is a fallacy that is closely related to the statement, "It's good in theory, but not good in practice." If socialism was good in theory it would be good in practice, but it's not good in theory. If it was a percect system then it would work perfectly for human beings - regardless if they are perfect or not. And human beings are not inherentley imperfect, as nothing is inherent, we are born tabula rasa. But that is a topic for another discussion.

It is destined to fail no matter how we alter it, no matter what form we try, not because it is bad, but because we are not fit for such a society. I'm sorry to tell you...

Why are we not 'fit' for such a system? I'll tell you why. Because a system such as socialism is not fit for human beings. Human beings were not meant to sacrifice themselves for others. A life dedicated to sacrifice is a life not worth living. If you sacrifice - and by sacrifice I mean to give up a higher value for a lesser one - you are not living a life, but you are a tool to whom you are making the sacrifice to.

[ArmoBarbi]

That's the same as what I said, except you made out the system to be at fault and I the people. That is just a matter of perspective... I've lived in communist countries, I know how it affects the people. It doesn't work, but that does not mean it is bad in theory...it just isn't thought out all the way, since it doesn't consider the selfish nature of humans...I suppose you can say that makes it bad in theory...eh, either way, we know it doesn't work. "We are lovers because we are killers."

[Objectivist]

Where have you lived, Communist Armenia? That must have been quite an experience to live in a communist country. I have heard many people say (Old people from Russia and Armenia - the USSR days). They say that it is horrible to live there, and that living in that country can't be fully explained to a free people such as Americans. I have never heard someone praise a Communist country. (Except for the leaders and profiteers of course ).

[Anonymouse]

Where have you lived, Communist Armenia? That must have been quite an experience to live in a communist country. I have heard many people say (Old people from Russia and Armenia - the USSR days). They say that it is horrible to live there, and that living in that country can't be fully explained to a free people such as Americans. I have never heard someone praise a Communist country. (Except for the leaders and profiteers of course ).

I was a child when I lived in Soviet Armenia, but my parents have lived under it and they didn't like it. In fact, my moms family after having moved back to Armenia in 1948 from Syria (since they ended up in Syria because of the Genocide), were exiled by the Armenian Communists under Stalin supposedly as 'traitors'. Here they are these Communists Armenians who are nothing more than Stalin's lapdogs sending a message to the diaspora Armenians after WWII saying "Hey come here this is beautiful Armenia come join us we will make a greater Armenia and you will find a life and opportunity here in this socialist bliss". So my moms family was one of those families. After relocating back in Armenia, there they were exiled. God bless that Communist paranoia.

[ArmoBarbi]

First, to answer your question: I lived in Azerbaijan until we were kicked out (Sumgait of course), and then I lived in Russia. I am half Bakvahye half Hayastantsi. (Bakvahye by birth) My parents were from nice Soviet families. lol My mother was a pioneer group leader, a good student, an athlete, and collected Soviet buttons as a teenager. (you get the picture lol) I think my father was not far behind her during his youth. (sarcastic pride)

My father's parents were well educated medical pros in Armenia, and his dad had the highest honors as a war hero. My mother's parents did not go to college, but built their own huge house in Baku somehow, and her dad ended up being in charge of one of thoses crews that went to oil pumps and examined their condition/made proper repairs (they made good connections I guess?) Anyway, point being, they were not people who lived in poverty. They remember happy times. My mother says that it all started to go bad during the reconstruction years with Gorbachev.

(She does say that the economy was false, and how everything went bad once people started to realize it. Not sure how that goes with Gorbachev...I think people actually knew before that)

Funny thing is, although the families were successful during Communist rule, they were still Democrats. I honestly think that all intelligent people in the Union were really against the way the government ran the country, some just were luckier than others or looked better in the eyes of "the Party". People had to go on living and supporting their families. They knew exactly what happened to people who weren't liked by the Party. Like what Arman said, or worse...

I do remember them all wispering during the beginning of the dissolve. Once in Moscow we passed a political building in a taxi, and there was a protest outside...my mother and her cousin started wispering quietly...I kept asking what was going on, but they pretended it was nothing. (I was really young of course) I wish I could remember more. Most of my information is from talking to older people.