Originally posted by ArmenianKid
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The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
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Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!
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Socialism. your thoughts?
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Achkerov kute.
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Yes Mouse - perhaps all we need is another frontier to conquer and native peoples to push out.
The American West - in the period you describe had extremely low population densities and those who lived there pretty much lived off the land in one form or another (and mostly just stayed out of each others way - but when they didn't disputes were most often settled by bloodshed). There was no need for anyone to build roads per se - or upkeep them, (and so much more that underpins our society today that just were not facotrs then) and there was little need for (any complex) rule of law (civil/property or criminal etc etc) as people tended to be pretty much spaced out and on their own. None of this is the case now - our populations are way too dense (and varied) for this idea to have any merit. You love to put word in my mouth - say I am necissarily anti-gun (I've been a long term NRA member I'll have you know - though I'm not so at the moment I'm quite familiar with guns and the arguments for why groups outside of government should not be prevented from the means to rise against government if they deem it necessariy - and so on and so forth). You are the one who fails to appreciate the complexities of the world and how your fairy tale (at best) ideas cannot be enacted (again not that you've really proposed anything of substance). And your attributing what I am referring to as environmental stresses causing societal uphevals and such as a simple thing - well you obviously have no clue concerning what I am talking about. You like to reduce everythign to easy platitudes - well such really does no one any good - except to perhaps make you feel smug that you think you know understand things when you have no clue.
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Originally posted by AnonymousePolitics is the study of government, economics is about production and consumption.
So socialism - does it just refer to a political system? Can one view Communism strictly in terms of the politboro, party politics and how leaders are chosen? Does anyone really consider (applied...not just theoretical) economics in a vacum? ...ignoring the legal framework and the political environment for manipulation of capital, property and production?
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Originally posted by winomanYes Mouse - perhaps all we need is another frontier to conquer and native peoples to push out.
Originally posted by winomanThe American West - in the period you describe had extremely low population densities and those who lived there pretty much lived off the land in one form or another (and mostly just stayed out of each others way - but when they didn't disputes were most often settled by bloodshed).
Originally posted by winomanThere was no need for anyone to build roads per se - or upkeep them, (and so much more that underpins our society today that just were not facotrs then) and there was little need for (any complex) rule of law (civil/property or criminal etc etc) as people tended to be pretty much spaced out and on their own.None of this is the case now - our populations are way too dense (and varied) for this idea to have any merit. You love to put word in my mouth - say I am necissarily anti-gun (I've been a long term NRA member I'll have you know - though I'm not so at the moment I'm quite familiar with guns and the arguments for why groups outside of government should not be prevented from the means to rise against government if they deem it necessariy - and so on and so forth). You are the one who fails to appreciate the complexities of the world and how your fairy tale (at best) ideas cannot be enacted (again not that you've really proposed anything of substance). And your attributing what I am referring to as environmental stresses causing societal uphevals and such as a simple thing - well you obviously have no clue concerning what I am talking about. You like to reduce everythign to easy platitudes - well such really does no one any good - except to perhaps make you feel smug that you think you know understand things when you have no clue.
As Ryan McMaken stated if you read:
"More recently, we find Lethal Imagination: Violence and Brutality in American History, edited by Michael Bellesiles (the now infamous author of Arming America) which contains a number of essays by authors further examining the disappointing reality that the West was actually quite a bit more boring than the movies led us to believe. Indeed, taken together, this body of research leaves us with a West that hardly lives up to the reputation of the Wild West.
As with Dodge City, the excitement in the Old West in general has been much overstated. All the big cattle towns of Kansas combined saw a total of 45 murders during the period of 1870-1885. Dodge City alone saw 15 people die violently from 1876–1885—an average of 1.5 per year. Deadwood, South Dakota and Tombstone, Arizona (home of the O.K. Corral), during their worst years of violence saw four and five murders respectively. Vigilante violence appears to not have been much worse.
According to Dykstra and Richard M. Brown, while the Kansas code gave mayors the power to call a vigilante group from all the men in the town who ranged in ages from 18–50, it seems, at least in Kansas, that it was rarely done. In a span of 38 years, Kansas had only 19 vigilante movements that accounted for 18 deaths. In addition, between 1876 and 1886, no one was lynched or hanged illegally in Dodge City.
Given the money to be made by exploiting the exciting reputation of the Frontier, it should not surprise us that Dodge City was hardly alone in manufacturing tales of blazing guns to attract men seeking adventure. Towns like Tombstone, Abilene and Deadwood all played up their supposed histories of Frontier violence. On closer inspection, though, the records are not nearly as exciting. (For more, see "The Not So Wild Wild West" by Terry Anderson.)"
And he further elaborates:
The settling of the American Frontier represents some of the most undirected, spontaneous and free settling of land seen since the ancient world. All modern Frontier states (i.e., Australia, Canada, and the Latin American countries) were settled for largely economic reasons by courageous settlers willing to brave an unknown geography, but nowhere was the State less involved in this settlement than on the American Frontier.
The wagon train era which we so closely identify with the settlement of the West was started by the Mormons, who while also largely motivated by religious freedom considerations, quickly set up shop (literally) in their new environs and began trading with both the Americans in the east and with the Mexican settlers on the West Coast (as well as Indians). While many other Americans began to brave the plains to travel to the riches described in the guidebooks about Oregon and California, the trend only began to really accelerate after the discovery of gold in California in 1849. By 1850, there were literally thousands of wagon trains on the trail to California with one train rarely out of sight of another.
Entire industries grew up around getting people to their destinations, and serving them once they got there. Markets for scouts, guides, equipment, guidebooks, and teamsters were all readily supplied by enthusiastic entrepreneurs. While government surveyors like Charles Fremont promoted and helped map the West, the actual settling was always done by men and women looking to make a better living in a new land. In other words, civilization was brought to the West by private citizens, private entrepreneurs, and private law enforcement.Achkerov kute.
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Originally posted by winomanPerhaps this is true when speaking of how studies are diveded at university. But I am talking about the real world. Anyone who does not understand their extreme interdependency and that (study of) politics and economics is but a perspective to look at essentially the same thing is a fool. Political systems and process largely exist as a means of regulating the economics of societies. You understand this I know - even if you choose to portray ignorance of such.
So socialism - does it just refer to a political system? Can one view Communism strictly in terms of the politboro, party politics and how leaders are chosen? Does anyone really consider (applied...not just theoretical) economics in a vacum? ...ignoring the legal framework and the political environment for manipulation of capital, property and production?Achkerov kute.
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Originally posted by AnonymouseTalk about limited knowledge. You're lack of knowledge regarding history, or simple economics is telling. Before you can even engage in a discussion you must first have some knowledge to engage in a discussion, not merely stating "I'm a socialist and it can work" and running away. The end of argument as far as you are concerned is not even the issue. You never began one to begin.
i asked what u thought of the socialistic ideal. but u thought that ment flame me for thinking it could work. in some cases socialism works, in others it didnt. just like any kind of governmental ideal.
in the end it ends up in the leaderships lap to secure the country, not just the type of government.
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Originally posted by ArmenianKidi asked what u thought of the socialistic ideal. but u thought that ment flame me for thinking it could work. in some cases socialism works, in others it didnt. just like any kind of governmental ideal.
in the end it ends up in the leaderships lap to secure the country, not just the type of government.
So what would your socialist ideal consist of? People voting for a government that would redistribute wealth? What if hypothetically I did not want your government to take my wealth from me, what will you do, forcibly take it?Achkerov kute.
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I have to say, as noble as Lenin's intentions may have been, it really is not a fair system. A person who has talent and works hard deserves to have more than a person who sits on his ass. If a person has nothing to offer then he is not a valuable member of society anyway, why take care of him? I would simply refuse to live in a country where a person like this gets as much wealth as I do for getting an education and working.
"From all by ability to all by need" (trying to remember the slogan...) is not a sensible system. People have no motivation to work and excell except their personal choice to do so, which is not enough for a whole country to excell or even survive since many people will not be strong enough to push themselves through without the extra motivation.
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Originally posted by ArmoBarbiI have to say, as noble as Lenin's intentions may have been, it really is not a fair system. A person who has talent and works hard deserves to have more than a person who sits on his ass. If a person has nothing to offer then he is not a valuable member of society anyway, why take care of him? I would simply refuse to live in a country where a person like this gets as much wealth as I do for getting an education and working.
"From all by ability to all by need" (trying to remember the slogan...) is not a sensible system. People have no motivation to work and excell except their personal choice to do so, which is not enough for a whole country to excell or even survive since many people will not be strong enough to push themselves through without the extra motivation.Achkerov kute.
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Originally posted by AnonymousePolitical systems are concerned with governing, and coercing individuals, and the study of politics is a study of a variety of laws and theories in how better able to control populations. Economics is the science of human action in a world of scarcity.
And I'm old - all that fine print is too small. But are you trying to tell me that population denisties in the west even begion to approach those we have in most urban/suburban and even most other areas of our nation today? No - they are no really comparable. I can just imagine if my homowners assocation was allowed to make its own laws and have its own (unregulated) army. I have a feeling that some normally OK people would be driven out (maybe all the black people eh? - or Jews - you'd like that eh?) - and a few folks would likely be killed by now. The conditions in the West are so different then what we face now in this country and in most of the world that it is laughable that you try to present stuff as an example of how we should (or could) live today...yeah cattlemens associations - you know these groups still exist - and we have Basque friends living out west who have sheep herds and you wouldn't believe the trouble they have with these cattlemen asssociations - and the violence that has been perpetuated against them/their flocks....yeah - and thats even with laws supposedly to prevent such.
So yeah - your "solution" to Democracy...Emperor of the Big Bear nation - self proclaimed Monarch - eh
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