What is Love?

[Siggie]

Re: What is Love?

Siggie, what's with you and your love in attacking religion? Christianity and the messages that were professed by Jesus were revolutionary for the world and mankind. It helped reshape human society as we know it. One of the central themes to Jesus's message is undoubtedly love and compassion, and theologian can agree with this.

I just took issue with the statement that there's no love without Christ. I didn't even bring up religion, in this case and I don't *love* attacking it.
I don't dispute that Christianity had a tremendous impact on the world. I just don't think religion is a good thing. If anything, it has been bad for the world. So much blood has been shed in the name of religion. Christians say that is the message and there certainly are some positive messages, but I'm not a fan of picking out parts of the bible and ignoring the rest. If we look at it as a whole, there is a lot of intolerance and cruelty in there as well.

[Mos]

Re: What is Love?

Siggie, what's with you and your love in attacking religion? Christianity and the messages that were professed by Jesus were revolutionary for the world and mankind. It helped reshape human society as we know it. One of the central themes to Jesus's message is undoubtedly love and compassion, and theologian can agree with this.

[Mikael]

Re: What is Love?

We can write a lot about Love...but I think, that best description is...<<Love is the very thing, that cannot be explained by words...>>...

[KanadaHye]

Re: What is Love?

Except for people of other tribes, those who don't care for Christ's teachings, people with different faiths, non-believers, the wealthy, the disabled, adulterers, any commandment breakers, the homosexuals, animals, etc.? Them it's okay to hate and kill...

I really wonder if people who claim that it's all about benevolence and love have even read the bible... Since you're talking about Christ, I'll stick to the New Testament (although it does say more than a couple times that JC approved of Gods actions from the OT).


Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
speaking in parables to confuse people so they can go to hell?

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mark 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Mark 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Killing everyone on the planet, but one family? Totally okay and will happen again.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
...
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Crippled are so because they sinned.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
all non-believers will be killed

Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
kill all covenant breakers

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
everyone was punished for the sin of one (adam) and killing one innocent man (jesus), everyone's sins were forgiven.

Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Ephisians
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Hebrews
7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Blessed for slaughter of the kings and rewarded with spoils

9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (9:15) "By means of death ... they which are called ... receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (9:16) "Where a testament is, there must also ... be ... death."
9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. (9:18) "Neither ... testament was dedicated without blood."
9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, (9:19) "Moses ... took the blood of calves and of goats ... and sprinkled both the book, and all the people."
9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. (9:20) "This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you."

(9:21) "Sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry."
9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
We're predestined for heaven or hell and our thoughts, words, actions don't matter

...

Enough I think and I haven't even touched Revelation.

And after reading all that, you still don't understand that the world hasn't learned a thing since everything that is described still repeats today yet people don't prepare themselves for the inevitable

[Siggie]

Re: What is Love?

Think of it this way. There are many different kinds of chocolate, but there would be no chocolate without cocoa.



It has to do with self interest (same as money). In your example you would have a legitimate reason to be late for class and would not be punished. However, if someone was in a rush in the morning traffic on the way to work, how many people would stop to give someone else on the side of the road a jump start? That's why roadside assistance programs were created.

How can you explain this video of a toddler getting hit by a vehicle and people walking by ignoring what they see. Simply because it's not in their self interest.

I understand what you're saying. It's just that it doesn't make sense. You said that's not what you were saying, but then you're saying that you are indeed saying that love isn't possible without Christ. Which implies then that love didn't exist prior to Christ.

Oh come now...
There are also videos of dogs risking their lives to save other dogs or people or whatever. What's your point? Pointing to one case of someone unethical doesn't mean that altruism doesn't occur.

[Siggie]

Re: What is Love?

"You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself"

Christ's message of love, compassion, and good work is crucial in understand these kind of terms in modern society. Love rather than being just a simple biological desire, was given a more complex and understanding meaning by Christ and Christianity in general.

Except for people of other tribes, those who don't care for Christ's teachings, people with different faiths, non-believers, the wealthy, the disabled, adulterers, any commandment breakers, the homosexuals, animals, etc.? Them it's okay to hate and kill...

I really wonder if people who claim that it's all about benevolence and love have even read the bible... Since you're talking about Christ, I'll stick to the New Testament (although it does say more than a couple times that JC approved of Gods actions from the OT).


Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
speaking in parables to confuse people so they can go to hell?

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mark 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Mark 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Killing everyone on the planet, but one family? Totally okay and will happen again.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
...
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Crippled are so because they sinned.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
all non-believers will be killed

Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
kill all covenant breakers

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
everyone was punished for the sin of one (adam) and killing one innocent man (jesus), everyone's sins were forgiven.

Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Ephisians
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Hebrews
7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Blessed for slaughter of the kings and rewarded with spoils

9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (9:15) "By means of death ... they which are called ... receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (9:16) "Where a testament is, there must also ... be ... death."
9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. (9:18) "Neither ... testament was dedicated without blood."
9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, (9:19) "Moses ... took the blood of calves and of goats ... and sprinkled both the book, and all the people."
9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. (9:20) "This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you."

(9:21) "Sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry."
9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
We're predestined for heaven or hell and our thoughts, words, actions don't matter

...

Enough I think and I haven't even touched Revelation.

[KanadaHye]

Re: What is Love?

Not sure how that statement was different when the part following the "but" was identical.

Think of it this way. There are many different kinds of chocolate, but there would be no chocolate without cocoa.

I'm not talking about trade per se. People behave altruistically even with no expectation or possibility of reciprocation. Say you're on your way to class and stop to help someone who has fallen although it means you will be late to class. What does that have to do with money?

It has to do with self interest (same as money). In your example you would have a legitimate reason to be late for class and would not be punished. However, if someone was in a rush in the morning traffic on the way to work, how many people would stop to give someone else on the side of the road a jump start? That's why roadside assistance programs were created.

How can you explain this video of a toddler getting hit by a vehicle and people walking by ignoring what they see. Simply because it's not in their self interest.

[Siggie]

Re: What is Love?

Let me rephrase. There are many forms of "love" but there would be no love without Christ.




Human beings are of course social creatures who depend on each other for survival. I suppose one "advantage" to altruism would be reciprocation. However, with human interaction, this isn't the case which is the reason why "money" was created. Humans felt there wasn't a fair return on their deeds or a proper way of tracking their transactions. If we were truly altruistic, money would have never been needed since everyone would be giving more than they take so nobody would feel as though they are getting the short end of the stick so to speak. In other words, there would be no rich or poor people.

Not sure how that statement was different when the part following the "but" was identical.

I'm not talking about trade per se. People behave altruistically even with no expectation or possibility of reciprocation. Say you're on your way to class and stop to help someone who has fallen although it means you will be late to class. What does that have to do with money?

[Mos]

Re: What is Love?

"You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself"

Christ's message of love, compassion, and good work is crucial in understand these kind of terms in modern society. Love rather than being just a simple biological desire, was given a more complex and understanding meaning by Christ and Christianity in general.

[KanadaHye]

Re: What is Love?

Sure you did. "There is no love without Christ" is pretty unequivocal. You didn't say it's one way to love.

Let me rephrase. There are many forms of "love" but there would be no love without Christ.

It isn't. Human beings are not solitary. They've never been. We rely on others, therefore it does not further us to be selfish. There are advantages (including adaptive ones) to altruism.

The hominids didn't survive for thousands upon thousands of years by being selfish. There had to cooperation and sacrifice for the "greater good."
That was not a new lesson that needed to be taught.

Human beings are of course social creatures who depend on each other for survival. I suppose one "advantage" to altruism would be reciprocation. However, with human interaction, this isn't the case which is the reason why "money" was created. Humans felt there wasn't a fair return on their deeds or a proper way of tracking their transactions. If we were truly altruistic, money would have never been needed since everyone would be giving more than they take so nobody would feel as though they are getting the short end of the stick so to speak. In other words, there would be no rich or poor people.