Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Actually, just the reverse is true. Conservatism is something women prefer even more than men. Hence the dedication to even extreme patriarchal societies with really negligible exceptions. Women have done well with the model Armenians had in rural and urban settings. Armenian writers were willing to deal with the topic of women's rights at least to the point where writers such as Zabel Yessayan would be respected as an intellectual. Unfortunately, the backwards eastern mentality does have a thick residue, but the entire point about the respectfulness of the conservatism advocated is that it is all inclusive, provided that it does protect the group identity.

Your stance is that of a leftist radical who sees only evil in group think, while the same sort of ultra-leftists are absolutely tyrannical in their enforcement of state based totalitarianism to enforce "individual rights" that en up as being no rights at all. Case in point, every single instance where Marxism has been implemented. The idea, the core of the radical "individualist" propaganda and desire for social engineering at the expense of existing, and funcitoning, group identities is precisely to wield the power away from the natural leadership of that group to the benefit of whoever the interested party is, whether it is single-minded ambitious group such as any given Marxist or Fascist outcropping, a corporate or business interest, or a symbiosis of both. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

Why, indeed, are certain people so hard strung into discrediting nationalism with such lies? it's a question that can only be answered by the counter-punch to nationalism, which is always imperialism of some sort.

You really think Zabel Yesayan was respected?

Get yourself to Afghanistan - you will be at home there: an extreme patriarchal society to your liking, and the women there just love it too! You will love their future president - his manifesto bans women studying engineering because because he thinks womens brains are not designed for heavy thinking and ther bodies not designed for lifting things.

But what a strange world view you hold. In it, do dinosaurs still roam the earth? Dinosaurs and Marxists and ultra-leftists and similar extinct creatures. I think the last living real "Marxist" will be some elderly Frenchman in a care home for retired philosophers! But we are still more likely to see a real live Marxist than a female online Armenian - so there won't be any around to contest your "Conservatism is something women prefer" claim. I guess conservatism includes keeping them off the internet.

Now where was it that a law was proposed obliging women visiting internet cafes to be accompanied by a male who would supervise their online activities? Turkey?

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

A society with a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" ALWAYS means a society with a complete disrespect for and lack of value of women. And one with fear of, and active hostility towards, the individual in general.

Actually, just the reverse is true. Conservatism is something women prefer even more than men. Hence the dedication to even extreme patriarchal societies with really negligible exceptions. Women have done well with the model Armenians had in rural and urban settings. Armenian writers were willing to deal with the topic of women's rights at least to the point where writers such as Zabel Yessayan would be respected as an intellectual. Unfortunately, the backwards eastern mentality does have a thick residue, but the entire point about the respectfulness of the conservatism advocated is that it is all inclusive, provided that it does protect the group identity.

Your stance is that of a leftist radical who sees only evil in group think, while the same sort of ultra-leftists are absolutely tyrannical in their enforcement of state based totalitarianism to enforce "individual rights" that en up as being no rights at all. Case in point, every single instance where Marxism has been implemented. The idea, the core of the radical "individualist" propaganda and desire for social engineering at the expense of existing, and funcitoning, group identities is precisely to wield the power away from the natural leadership of that group to the benefit of whoever the interested party is, whether it is single-minded ambitious group such as any given Marxist or Fascist outcropping, a corporate or business interest, or a symbiosis of both. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

Why, indeed, are certain people so hard strung into discrediting nationalism with such lies? it's a question that can only be answered by the counter-punch to nationalism, which is always imperialism of some sort.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

no it doesn't, that's your liberal interpretation of it. There's no reason why your slippery slope argument has to be true. There's no reason you cannot have a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past without slipping into Saudi Arabia. There is much more respect for woman in that society than in modern Western Society that leads to the degrading of the nuclear family

Of course part of your idea of what a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" does is to never ask women what they want - so it would never enter your head to ask any woman whether they think your alleged paradise of "a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past" would have been any paradise for them. Bigots like you - whether in Armenia or Saudi Arabia or Greece or anywhere, always seem to think "respect" means enforcing their will over others and telling others what they cannot do. I wonder what dictionary you use, an opposite-of-actual-meaning dictionary?

[Mher]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

A society with a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" ALWAYS means a society with a complete disrespect for and lack of value of women. And one with fear of, and active hostility towards, the individual in general.

no it doesn't, that's your liberal interpretation of it. There's no reason why your slippery slope argument has to be true. There's no reason you cannot have a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past without slipping into Saudi Arabia. There is much more respect for woman in that society than in modern Western Society that leads to the degrading of the nuclear family

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Hopefully we will get back the reputation of a respectful and conservative nationality and culture

A society with a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" ALWAYS means a society with a complete disrespect for and lack of value of women. And one with fear of, and active hostility towards, the individual in general.

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

That answer always sounds wonderful on paper until you realize that we have to live in groups, and the groups, such as our ethnicity, not just any group identity, are as important as our individual identity and the only macro group that really matters. It is to go to the extreme of naivete if you believe in the "greater human family." (Otherwise, why an ARmenian forum at all?). Such a utopic vision can only happen if there is massive arrested development (no true purpose, direction or will of one's own, no lofty ambitions or idealism, not really, merely low level impulses masquerading as "lofty individualist/democratic ideals") in the short term. In the longer term, things are looking even more bleak. The only real guarantee, as always in the modern era, is strong cultural a form of nationalism, and marriage should support that, preferably a conscious and religiously voluntary (yes, voluntary and infinitely more autonomous than the so-called "individualist" alternative subject to the whims of, at best, mercantile forces, at best) effort would be the ideal. Yet, in this age of rapid communication and rapid indoctrination, which serves all sorts of "individualism" oriented large interests (I highly suggest you take seriously and note the extreme irony, mostly "consumerist" and by default anti-group consciousness and thus anti-nationalist), nations need a nation state as the only functioning and viable support structure for their way of life, marriage being central to this, their inherited group identity, which, in the case of ARmenians, is worth the while.

You seems to be a leftist, and leftists eventually also lose sight of the reason even for nuclear families. After all, Marx said that already has occurred the moment you urbanize, which is nonsense, but Marx specialized in intellectualized nonsense. These women are obviously aware of something, or have been socialized to be aware, beyond personal needs and fulfillment. Russian men are finally seeing that need and as part of being stronger and more worthy men, while ARmenian men, who knew that very well, are slowly starting to lose sight of it. That needs to stop.

[TomServo]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Whatever makes them happy (at the individual level).

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Why the sarcasm? Is there something wrong with these women? By whose standards?

[TomServo]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Russian women need to follow the example of their Daghestani sisters...

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

I agree with Mher on the Russian women issue. In addition, I would like to add that I have known Russian women who are dignified and intelligent, in fact very nationalistic, and have married, eventually, Russian men. Putin has changed their attitudes quite a bit, and lately I had been watching a televised report that asks the question of whether Peter I should be considered a national hero, an icon who laid the foundations to the modern RUssia, or the one who introduced hard liquor to Russian society? It is a fascinating inquiry that attempts, first of all, to find the reasons for the apathy of Russian men toward their women, which is something specifically discussed in that TV article.

Russians are changing, and their men are beginning to increasingly resent how their women are viewed by foreigners. I find that to be a healthy trend, and we Armenians, those of us who are still in the USSR mindset of "my Natya" (recall the Vigen Chaldranian production of "Yerevan-Los Angeles), are in for a shock. Hopefully we will get back the reputation of a respectful and conservative nationality and culture, but that has to be a decision at the individual level, since we do not seem to have media or leadership examples.