The Ottomans

[retro]

Re: The Ottomans

I wonder if Armenian (besides Greek) artists were involved in creating these frescoes?

I suppose you never know as Rome conquered the Armenian empire and ruled over it for a few hundred years.

It seems George lost his head.

George is thought to have been a soldier that rose through the ranks of the Roman army, but resigned his post in protest when the emperor of the day, Diocletian, began persecuting Christians at the beginning of the fourth century.

He was imprisoned and tortured, but refused to deny his faith, and was eventually beheaded in Palestine - reputedly on 23 April 303.

[retro]

Re: The Ottomans

what is interesting is that after experimenting with Kemalism (nationalism) for nearly 90 years, Turks are moving toward the Ottoman model.

the ottoman model gave more recognition to all the different nationalities

Turks have realized that for Turkey to remain a single state, and not break up into a Kurdish and a Turkish unit, Turkish nationalism will have to be toned down

Atatürk's secular nationalism and neo-Ottomanist Islamist despotism are two sides of the same Turkish coin.

Funny people the Kurds, as they seemingly have West Asian (presumably Persian/Mesopotamian) paternal and European (Balkan) maternal ancestry.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Atatürk's secular nationalism and neo-Ottomanist Islamist despotism are two sides of the same Turkish coin..

the ottomans became more intolerant in the 19th century to stop the empire breaking up

the ottomans needed the Christians in the empire to provide many services, so they could not afford to oppress them too much

[retro]

Re: The Ottomans

the ottomans became more intolerant in the 19th century to stop the empire breaking up

the ottomans needed the Christians in the empire to provide many services, so they could not afford to oppress them too much

Not if the persecution of Maronites by the Ottomans Druze lackeys is anything to go by. However the people who seemingly faired the worst under Ottoman rule where the Persians and Balkan peoples. The Turkish Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians where to small a minority numerically to be a real threat to Turkey's integrity and they where highly intgrated into Turkish society.

Northern Fertile Crescent peoples are ethnicly mixed Northwestern Semitic/Indo-European Anatolian peoples. Which is why the Assyrians and Armenians are related to each other.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Good analysis from Ara Baliozian on claims of peaceful co-existence in Anatolia
#5 MEMO
TO MY TURKISH FRIENDS
************************************************** **
You dare to speak of six centuries of peaceful Armeno-Turkish coexistence in the Ottoman Empire. You forget that during this so-called brotherly co-existence you raped our daughters and forced them into concubinage; and you abducted our sons and forced them to kill and die in your imperialist wars of conquest. You did these things legally of course because your legal system was rotten.
*
Times change and laws change but you continue to think with the old Ottomanized brain, hence the absurd notion that, like the Sultan before them, both Talaat and Kemal represented the Almighty on earth and as such they could do no wrong, and anyone who says otherwise is guilty of treason and deserves to die.
*
A man can get used to anything. You got used to your own vileness and we got used to our own cowardly subservience. In that sense, the Ottoman Empire was not the blessing you like to believe it was, but a curse to both of us.
And if we massacred you whenever we had the upper hand it may be because as your subjects, we adopted and put into practice the values and methods of our masters. Before you blame us, blame yourself.
*
In one of his Anatolian travelogues Lord Kinross, a notorious Turcophile and the future author of a mammoth biography of Kemal, quotes an old Turkish peasant as having said: “We taught the Armenians a lesson the will never forget.” This illiterate peasant understood what educated, modernized, denialist scholars pretend not to understand today, namely that, what you did to us can neither be forgotten nor forgiven or, for that matter, covered up.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

OTTOMAN ETIQUETTE (by Ara Baliozian)
*****************************
If you don't like the message,
kill the messenger;
if you can't kill him, insult him;
if he ignores your insults,
drag him down into the gutter
where you may have the upper hand;
if he refuses to join you there
sling mud at him and keep slinging
in the hope some of it may stick.
Above all do not give up.
Keep trying.
Set your goal at his total destruction
even if it means destroying yourself in the process.
*

[bell-the-cat]

Re: The Ottomans

OTTOMAN ETIQUETTE (by Ara Baliozian)
*****************************
If you don't like the message,
kill the messenger;
if you can't kill him, insult him;
if he ignores your insults,
drag him down into the gutter
where you may have the upper hand;
if he refuses to join you there
sling mud at him and keep slinging
in the hope some of it may stick.
Above all do not give up.
Keep trying.
Set your goal at his total destruction
even if it means destroying yourself in the process.
*

Shouldn't that be titled "ARMENIAN etiquette"? Wasn't Ottoman etiquette just to send in some Kurds with sharp knives?

[Armanen]

Re: The Ottomans

Shouldn't that be titled "ARMENIAN etiquette"? Wasn't Ottoman etiquette just to send in some Kurds with sharp knives?

No, it is scottish.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

No, it is scottish.

bell has a point. Don't forget Armenians living under the Ottomans for 600 years inevitably/unconsciously adopted Ottoman ways

[Joseph]

Re: The Ottomans

bell has a point. Don't forget Armenians living under the Ottomans for 600 years inevitably/unconsciously adopted Ottoman ways

Agree. Baliozian and Bell are partially correct. The Ottoman experience brought out some of the worst characteristics in Armenians and it rears its head from time to times. Our petty jealousies against one another, split in the church, rage, self pity, assimilation, etc.

We see it here quite often. When someone makes a mistake or we disagree, it seems all hell breaks lose. This does not help our cause.

Had Armenians cooperated, unified, worked in tandem, been more guarded of outsiders, not depended on others much more could have been overcome in past. Of course all is not lost and it is going to take for this "Ottomanization" dissipate and it already has in Artsakh. Each Armenian has to instill in himself/herself and his/her family the right to struggle, cooperate, show kindness, build intellect, build strength, be analytical, be honest, and forward thinking. Small victories will build momentum, again Artsakh is an example and that war cannot be lost by any means.