Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

[Anoush]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

Yes quite unfortunately but we as a nation do have a great deal of insecurities; because for a few centuries we had no country or a king, unfortunately most Armenians look to the West being higher and greater and better than us. Most Armenians now continue to have disbeliefs and insecurities. I have also noticed that most of our people kiss up to odars and put each other down which that too stems from insecurities. Too bad indeed. I wish now that we have a country, we start changing and start having national pride and love towards ourselves and our nation; especially when we have every right to have it and feel that way.

[Anoush]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

Thank you Armenian jan for these sites. They certainly more than prove to us that our Urartian monument was first and utmost when it was built as ancient as from the 9th century before Christ and the ones in Phrygia and then the Panthenon only followed our Urartian monument more than 400+ years later.

Indeed this is enough proof to me, it's great and thank you again as this is our national pride for us. We were the creators and everyone else copied from us!!!!!

Yes you're right. Garni Keghart is 8th centuries more recent than Musasir. The Romans or the Greeks they stress only about Garni to materialize our first and utmost Musasir's structure, to conceal the fact that they copied it. Rather they are bringing up only Garni Keghart to make the world believe otherwise. And now I also know and I am the one who should thank you Armenian jan for educating me of our national pride monuments and our great architectural Armenian builders and our forefathers' creative minds and capacities who thought the world on building, creating vast culture and great monuments around the globe!!!!!

[Armenian]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

...Personally, I have also heard before from various sources that the Greeks' monuments, btw; the Acropolis and their Greek women statues came after our Gaghni Keghart and Anahit's statues. And about Nemroud's "chasdvadsner" statues' validity, I have personally been taught in Armenian primary school from our Armenian history books...

Anoush jan, what you have heard is correct, but it has to be explained in better terms. The 'style' of architecture represented by the Greco-Roman inspired Garni temple in Armenia seems to have originated within the Armenian highlands and perhaps Egypt. The same applies to Greco-Roman arts. It needs to be said here that many aspects of Roman society was also effected/influenced by the ancient Etruscan. And if looked closely, you would see that the Etruscans themselves originated in Asia Minor...

What most Armenians, including our self-hating pseudo-historians in America, don't take into account when speaking of the classical architecture of Greeks and Romans is the Urartian 'temple of Musasir' that preceded classical Greek and Roman architecture.

Here is an image of the temple. Notice the stairs leading up to a platform where a box like building sits surrounded by columns supporting a pitched roof: http://www.arthistory.upenn.edu/smr0.../Slide5.15.jpg

Here is more information on the temple: http://www.geocities.com/paris/leftb...onicle400.html

Now, explain to me how the first century AD Roman funded temple at Garni is only a reflection of what Greeks or Romans produced? When have you heard an Armenian or a western historian bring up the temple at Musasir in their analysis of classical architecture? I haven't heard it yet. What I only hear is how the Garni temple is a Roman architecture in Armenia...

Now, is this a result of ignorance, self-hate or something malicious?

Anyway, despite what individuals like Anon here think, ethnocentrist Armenologists are not vociferous enough in their well-established stances regarding Armenian history and national heritage.

The issue regarding the architecture of the temple of Musasir versus Greco-Roman architecture is a good example of what Armenology is up against today. So, I'd like to thank you for bringing it up.

Anoush jan, whether we admit it or not even the best of us hold within us insecurities and self-hate regarding our nationality, some consciously others subconsciously. This is a direct byproduct of living hundreds of years as other people's subjects; a byproduct of our obsessions with the Armenian Genocide; a byproduct of living in a diaspora...

Despite the greatness of our forefathers, we today are a broken people. We have lost our blue blood. We are for the most part derived from Anatolian and Caucasian peasantry. We today are a troubled bunch of self-engrossed, otaramol egomaniacs. But the potential for greatness, the raw talent, the fire continues to live within us as a people. Given the proper environment and some time our genius as a people can be resurrected.

But will they give us the proper time and environment?

[Anoush]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

Armenian jan, I am not a historian like yourself; but I had my primary education in an Armenian school then I read from our main literature books such as Raffi, Vakhdank Ananian as a child, and later Avedis Aharonian's books, then biographies of Siamanto, Varoujan, Tashnagtsagan leaders and a great deal of our elite poetries and other books as well. However, in my previous note directed to you I believed about your videos and posts in most respects. I know you are a historian and I respect you as such; but what made me initially to believe much more than not what you put out above is the very fact that we were a much older nation than Europeans and even the eastern countries. When they were grazing we had monuments, a vast civilization and a nationality that any other nation would be proud. Please accept my apologies if you thought that I quickly changed my mind about believing about our culture, heritage and monuments. I did not; but I simply thought that Anon has a vast knowledge from our ancient history deeds and thus he is trying to keep an open mind that some of them couldn't be proven.

After all Armenian jan, historians can simply find out the validity of our monuments being first and utmost and then followed the Greeks', the Indians' and the Europeans' who mimicked from us by simply doing excavations and finding out the approximate years that our monuments and theirs were built. Personally, I have also heard before from various sources that the Greeks' monuments, btw; the Panthenon and their Greek women statues came after our initial structure of the great Armenian temple of Musasir as well as our Anahits' statue. And about Nemroud's "chasdvadsner" statues' validity, I have personally been taught in Armenian primary school from our Armenian history books.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

While all this seems interesting, it doesn't take away from the fact that this is all still more or less conjecture. Any time we seek to project ourselves into the past and try to interpret these past evidences, there is always a margin of error. I have seen white nationalists on Stormfront claim Nefertiti is white and offer all sorts of their evidence. I have seen Afrocentrists claim Nefertiti is black or Nubian and offer all sorts of evidence to support their claim. And now Armenian's are claiming she's Armenian? To me personally this is all gobbledygook.

The blacks are claiming alomost everybody these days it seems. They are even saying all of the Egyptians were black and so was Hannibal Barca. So why should we now pay attention to them now. They are acting like the Turks claiming people to feel that they were important back than.

[Armenian]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

While all this seems interesting, it doesn't take away from the fact that this is all still more or less conjecture. Any time we seek to project ourselves into the past and try to interpret these past evidences, there is always a margin of error. I have seen white nationalists on Stormfront claim Nefertiti is white and offer all sorts of their evidence. I have seen Afrocentrists claim Nefertiti is black or Nubian and offer all sorts of evidence to support their claim. And now Armenian's are claiming she's Armenian? To me personally this is all gobbledygook.

In a sense, yes, a lot of interpretations of history are more-or-less conjecture. This notion applies to 'all' interpretations of history and not just us Armenians. However, there are degrees of probabilities that one should consider when looking at various theories. Regardless, this is 'our' interpretation of 'our' history and thus far it is more credible than what you have been taught in western schools or seen on the History Channel.

I don't know what your intentions here are but you are being hard headed again. While you chose to question certain well established facts in Armenology, I wouldn't be surprised if you take as fact various very questionable materials put forward by western academia. Westerners don't question fables produced by Eurocentric historians because the information/fable is so ingrained in them that they simply don't even think about it.

It is pretty much well established that "Nefertiti" was a "Mittani" princess. Look it up. Thus, in a sense, yes, she was white, as were most of the early pharaohs.

Have you seen images of Nefertiti? Here is one: http://interdenominationaldivineorde.../nefertiti.jpg

Does she look "Black" to you, Anon? Regarding Blacks, since when did you begin taking them seriously??? Blacks also claim Hannibal, who was a Phoenician, and Cleopatra, who was an inbred Greek, were also Blacks. You stated that you have seen "Afrocentrists claim Nefertiti is black or Nubian and offer all sorts of evidence to support their claim." Please, Anon, since you claim to have seen these "evidences," refer them to us. I would like to see what you are talking about.

Allow me to save you time, Anon: no such "evidence" exists. What you so foolishly claimed is as shallow as the notion that Kwanzaa is an African holiday.

The Armenian claim is simply based on the historical evidence/fact that Nefertiti was a Mittani. But here you are, for some reason, lowering Armenian studies to the level of what Blacks do in America.

What a shame. Great job, Anon!

In your attempt to make 'me' look bad you just undermined the work of Armenian historians and our heritage. Isn't this is typical of us Armenians, anything goes to make the other Armo look bad, even if you have to tear down the entire house to do so...

Before you criticize or discount certain aspects of Armenology, first familiarize yourself with the vast amounts of information produced by ethnocentric Armenologists and western academia regarding the ancient Armenian Highlands. This does not mean, however, that you should do a fast last minute web search to prove 'your' point, like you did regarding the Crusades... Practice intellectual honesty, if you can. Take in the information provided and base your opinions on the available evidence.

It's as if you and others here get so psyched up about proving 'me' wrong that you end up making a joke of our national heritage in the process. This is pathetic. When non-Armenians do it is understandable, when Armenians do it, it's a damn shame. And in the big picture. this is our fundamental problem as a nation.

It's not about me, Anon, it's about objectivity and intellectual honesty.

[Anoush]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

Anon, you're certainly keeping an open mind culturally and ethnically wise.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

While all this seems interesting, it doesn't take away from the fact that this is all still more or less conjecture. Any time we seek to project ourselves into the past and try to interpret these past evidences, there is always a margin of error. I have seen white nationalists on Stormfront claim Nefertiti is white and offer all sorts of their evidence. I have seen Afrocentrists claim Nefertiti is black or Nubian and offer all sorts of evidence to support their claim. And now Armenian's are claiming she's Armenian? To me personally this is all gobbledygook.

[Anoush]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

Hayorti-Armenian, Haygagan hebardank en mer peghoun Hayazki badmoutyounnere. Shad ou shad shenorhagaloutyoun ays yerizneroun ou "site"een hamar.

[Armenian]

Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

Most students of Armenian history in the West fail to realize that one of the two names for our nation, Armenia, is much older than the classical Behistun inscriptions in Persia dating from sixth century BC. Various ancient Assyrian and Egyptian archival material from around 1500 BC clearly reference a nation within Asia Minor called "Ermen" or "Armani" which are the linguistic equivalents of the more familiar Armen or Armenia. Moreover, the black and red glazed pottery associated with the Hyksos that ruled Egypt for many centuries have also been associated with the earlier Metsamor culture of the Armenian highlands. Whats more, Armenian linguists/historians trace the Hellenized name Hyksos to Haikian or Armenian tribes of the Armenian Highlands. Western scholars sometimes use the term "Bedouin Princes" to describe the Hyksos. However, this is a misinterpretation. The term Hyksos simply implies nomadic or semi-nomadic horsemen, not Bedouin. Another fascinating piece of information regarding ancient Egypt that most Armenians do not know is the well established fact that the world famous queen of Egypt, Nefertiti, the women that revolutionized the Nile valley by bringing sun worship to Egypt, was an Armenian highlander. Queen Nefertiti of Egypt was a native of Mitanni. The Mittani Kingdom of the Armenian highlands was an off-shoot of the Hurrian kingdom. The Hurri and the Mittani were in turn the contemporaries of other Armenian highlanders, the Hittites and the Hykos. Today, all the aforementioned nations of the Armenian highlands are considered to be, in varying degrees, proto-Armenians; that is, we modern day Armenians are direct descendants of those ancient tribes. The following information is relevant to the aforementioned claims.

Armenian

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Egypt, the Hyksos and Armenia

EGYPTIANS build first pyramid ca 3000 BC in Sumerian terrace style; entrance faces rising sun in the East. Pharaoh, a term originally used to describe king's residence, is translated "great house." The 3,4,5 rule (used to build pyramids, known 3000 years later as Pythagoras Theorem): Take three straight lines. Make one 3 units long, another 4 units long, the last 5 units long. Join them together to make a triangle. The angle opposite the longest line will always be a right angle. The 3,4,5 rule is connected to these numbers: 3 squared, plus 4 squared, equals 5 squared. This principle was also used in India and Peru brickmaking! Many ancient representations of the Great Pyramid feature a bright apex. The apex has been pictured as an observing eye, or a bright light source. The emblem of the eye in the pyramid is still vastly used today. Perhaps pyramids were used as some sort of light beacon. Pyramid is a Greek word meaning "fire in the center." (Greek pyra "fire, light" and midos "measures." Old English, Norse fyr "fire." Radekhiv, Ukraine heraldry is this symbol.) One of Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Pharos (Lighthouse) of Alexandria was constructed ca 285 BC. Over 300 feet tall, it stood on the tip of Pharos Island in the harbor of Alexandria in Egypt. On a related note, Mari, Syria used signal fires, suggesting it was common at some point in history.

Heket - goddess of childbirth; Het - serpent goddess, rules fire; Khet - flame or fire (Egyptian.) Khetar - New Delhi. Kheter "crown", Kheter Malkut "crown + king" (Tatar); "ta hemet nesewt" king's wife. AKH "transformed spirit", "to be agreeable", "to be advantageous" or "to be splendid". The idea around akh was positive; Akh by itself was represented as a bird but when it appeared for humans it was in the form of a ghost.

PER-RE (Egyptian "City of the Sun"), HELIOPOLIS (Greek), ON (Bible): ancient city at the apex of the Nile River delta, near Cairo (located between Bubastis -north, and Memphis -south.) 2900 BC: First traces of Heliopolis in history, the god TEM was first revered. 2400 BC: priests succeed in making the CULT OF RE the state religion; the temple of Heliopolis 1570-1085 BC, was among the most important cult centres of Egypt. Ca 1000 BC: Slow decline for Heliopolis starts. After the founding of Alexandria in 332, Heliopolis is forgotten. From 30 BC: Roman invasion of Egypt, most obelisks are removed, city walls used for construction of other cities. (Diety transition: Tem > Re > Amon-Re.)

THEBES, capital during the period of the Middle and New Kingdoms, city of the god Amon. With temples and palaces at Karnak and Luxor and necropolises of the Valley of the Kings and the Valley of the Queens, Thebes is a striking testimony to Egyptian civilization at its height. Egypt: 9th - 10th Dynasty, 2135-1986 BC, several kings named KHETI. King Amunemhet I ca 1991-1962 BC, conducted an expedition of 10,000 men to the quarries of Hammamet for a sarcophagus.

HYKSOS KINGS OF EGYPT

Canaanite nomads entered the country freely. Most of these settled and became traders, farmers or craftsmen, but at least one of them, KHENDJER (Userkare, Ouserkare, Userkara), became a king ca 1747 BC. A small pyramid at Saqqara belonged to King Khendjer, two kings by the same name possible. By the end of the 13th Dynasty, the Eastern Delta was populated mostly by Asiatics (people from Asia Minor.)

HYKSOS, aka HK3W H3SWT, HEKA-KHASWT, HIKAU-KHASUT, HIKAU-KHOSWET, AMU, AAM, SETETYU ca 1720-1570 BC; Hyksos (Greek) hk3w h3swt (Egyptian) Heka-Khaswt "RULERS OF FOREIGN LANDS" ruled Egypt for 1180 years, 13-17th dynasty. (18th dynasty '3mw, translated 'Asiatics.') It has long been thought that there might be some relationship between the mysterious Hyksos kings of Egypt and the Patriarchs to account for the favorable reception, even royal distinction, given the latter. This relationship has been established by the discoveries of Petrie at Tell el-Yehudiyeh (Petrie, Hyksos and Israelite Cities). Although Hyksos race is not stated, their tribal character is that they were "Bedouin princes," (horse riders) leaders of the nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes of Upper and Lower Ruthen, (Syria and Palestine), and northern and western Arabia, as were the Patriarchs, so Hyksos were shown the consideration of one "Bedouin prince" for another. The civilization of Palestine in the patriarchal age was fully equal to that of Egypt. Non-Egyptian inhabitants of Dab'a identified with Hyksos of Egyptian texts, and Tell el-Dab'a with Hyksos capital of Avaris (aka El Arish.) Hyksos originated in the Levant from Canaanite ethnic stock. Two Hyksos sites, Tell el-Dab'a and Tell el-Maskhuta, have been excavated; Hyksos pottery: black and red polished juglets from Tell el-Maskhuta: closest resemblance in form and techniques to Syria-Palestine.

FIFTEENTH DYNASTY "GREATER HYKSOS KINGS" OF UPPER EGYPT ca 1663 -1555 BC (Salitis, Beon, Apachnas?) "These people, whom we called kings before, and shepherds too, and their descendants, held Egypt for 511 years." Confined to AVARIS area during rein of Egyptian Alisphragmuthosis; his son Tethmosis negotiated a treaty, in which Hyksos left Lower Egypt, crossed into Syria, and in a country now called Judea, built the city called JERUSALEM. "Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem. Thy birth and thy origin are of the land of Canaan; thy father was an AMORITE, and thy mother a HITTITE." (HYKSOS are AMORITE?)

(NOTE: 6 Kingships with years of reign from Manetho, with name known then, doesn't include Queen Hatsepsut.) Salitis aka Salatis, Sheshi - conquest of Memphis (1674-1661 BC) ruled 13 yrs; Yakubber aka, Bnon, Beon (1661-1617 BC) ruled 44 yrs; Khyan aka Khian, Iannas, Apachnan, Apachnas. KHYAN's artifacts found as far as Babylon, Knossos and Hatti. (1617-1581 BC) ruled 36.5 yrs; Apepi I aka Apopis, Apophis, Auserre (ca 1600-1560) sent a letter to king Seqenenre of Thebes, former capital of Egypt (1581 - 1520 BC) ruled 61 yrs; Apepi II aka, Khamudi (c.1542-1532); *Janine (1520-1470 BC) ruled 50 yrs; Queen HATSEPSUT (Hapsethsos, Hatshetsut), first woman Pharoah, 1498-1483 BC, is trading with country now known as Somolia. *Assis (1470-1421 BC) ruled 49 yrs.

SIXTEENTH DYNASTY - 32 Shepherd kings, ruling 518 years. Anat-Her aka Anather, User-anat, Semqen, ZAKET, Wasa, Qar, Pepi III, Bebankh, Nebmaatre, Nikare II, Aahotepre, Aaneterire, Nubankhre, Nubuserre, Khauserre, KHAMURE (Golden Falcon), Jacob-Baal, Yakbam akaYakobaam, Yoam, Amu...?; (zakat "purification" - Ottoman Turks.)

SEVENTEEN DYNASTY - 43 Shepherd kings, ruling 151 years concurrent with Theban kings. Antef V, Rahotep, Sobekemzaf I, Djehuti, Mentuhotep VII, Nebirau I, Nebirau II, Semenenre, Suserenre, Sobekemzag II, Antef VI, Antef VII, Taa I (Senakhetenre), Taa II (Seqenenre, Sekenenre), Kamose (Wadjkheperre). Egyptian queens of this epoch were crucial to the success of the Thebans. They provided legal continuity, and often led their armies after the demise of their husbands. The tomb of Queen AHHOTEP, wife of Tao II or successor Kamose, contained much weaponry and three golden flies (Egyptian award for bravery); Ahmoses's inscription praises her military leadership." Some HYKSOS used Egyptian names, did not try to integrate their own heritage into the Egyptian culture, suggesting long-term affiliation with Egyptian culture. (Philistine link with god Ba'al.)

Hyksos rule over Lower Egypt lasted from the conquest of Memphis by Salitis (Sheshi) in 1674 BC, till their expulsion in 1567 BC (107 years) and was mainly a time of peace and prosperity. Major Hyksos cities were at Tell el-Yahudiyeh, Heliopolis, Tell el-Maskhuta and Tell ed-Dab'a. Egyptian religion was respected; Egyptian was the language of government; and many Egyptians served in the administration. Their most important contributions to Egyptian culture were perhaps the introduction of Canaanite deities such as the Storm God identified with Seth, and Asian artifacts, instrumental in abrogating the despotism and isolationism of the Old and Middle kingdoms. Foreign culture became established, and Egyptians acquired new military techniques, such as use of the horse-drawn chariot and composite bow during this period. Hyksos conquests were strengthened by a type of rectangular fortification of beaten earth used as a fortress; examples of these mounds were discovered in Canaan at Jericho, Sihem, and Lahish. They maintained tribute or trade relations with Minoans and Babylonians.

Hitttites appear in Egyptian documents in the 18th dynasty ca 1550 BC.

Egyptian Thothmes III, in his twenty-third year (ca 1458 BC), after a great victory over the RUTENNU or LUDENNU (Mesopotamians and Lydians), received the submission of the "chiefs of Ermenen" and others. In his thirty-third year, Thothmes III mentions the people of Ermenen as paying tribute when he held his court at Nineveh, Babylon, and says that in their land "heaven rests upon its four pillars." (Ermenen is Armenia, Armenians call their country Chaiastan, a distance of about 1000 miles to Egypt.)

EGYPT (different kings for Upper and Lower Egypt?)

Tell el-Amarna Letters, ca 1480 BC, have letters from chiefs subject to Amenophis III at Joppa, Ashkelon, Gezer, Lachish and Keilah. Most of the letters are dated to the reigns of Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV. AMENHOTEP III, aka Akhnaton, Akhenaten, reign 1402-1364 BC. AMENHOTEP IV, aka Akhenaten, reign 1350-1334 at Thebes. Known as the "heretic Pharoah." Wife NEFERTITI disappears from records after 12 years, replaced by male "co-ruler." Son TUTANKAMEN (tut-an-akun, tut-an-amun) became Pharoah, died 1336 BC. His widow appeals to Hittite king to send her a son to marry, but ends up marrying middle aged General H.R.M.H.B. and dies shortly after. HOREMHEB (Harmhab), the king's deputy; first wife Amenia, second marriage to Nefertiti's sister, MUTNODJMET (Mutnedjmet.) Horemheb ruled 1336-1306 BC, died without heir. Named RAMSES I as Pharoah. Egyptian Ay (it-netjer) 1323-1319 BC, throne name Kheperkheperu-re. First documented as a Master of Horses, rose throught the ranks to become king.

Soon after RAMSES I was buried, new Pharaoh SETI had trouble on his hands. A series of wars erupt, triggered by the advances of neighboring peoples on the Egyptian Nile Delta, encouraged by weak and short reign of Ramesses I. The Shasu Bedouin (Bedawi) were threatening north eastern trade routes. Seti had to repell these people and secure Egyptian borders to the North, while maintaining and expanding his territory in the south and east. Only vast expanses of the Western Desert, "land of the dead" (Sahara), held no approaching enemies. Six battle paintings are ranged in a series on the outer wall of the north side the Great Hall. On each of the many pillars, hieroglyphs describe Seti's campaign to repulse the intruders. Another war in the east begins in the very first year of Seti's reign. Seti raised an army and marched North, to the Temple on Mount Casius, past the current boundary of Egypt and deep into the land of the PHILISTINES. "In the first year of King Seti there took place by the strong arm of Pharaoh the annihilation of the hostile SHASU, from the fortress of KHETAM of the land of ZARU, as far as KANAAN." The Shasu next are routed in PHOENICIAN territory. Seti is shown with Mehy, fighting the next enemy, the RUTENNU of Canaan:

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Battle of Kadesh, Egyptian Account, 1294 BC. Beginning of victory of King Usermare-Setepnere Ramses II. (Egyptian-Hittite conflict 1286 - 1269 BC, Treaty of Kadesh 1259 BC.) Hittites ambush Egyptians near Kadesh (Cades) on Orontes River. Unable to hold onto it, Seti returns it to the Hittite king in a peace treaty. RAMSES II, 1304-1212 BC, gives tribute to his father SETI: "those of the North (fair haired in illustrations) and the South beneath my feet." Ramesses II wed Hittite princess Maathornefrerure and granted her the same title 'Great King's Wife' as he did to his principal wife Nefertari. Rameses II in his twenty-first year, in war with KHETA-SIRA, king of the Hittites, probably subdued Armenia. Ramses II illustrations show him with a shaved head and a long braid on the side. Mummy reveals he was 5'6" tall, had an aquiline nose and was red-haired. His 13th son, Merenptah, became Pharoah aged 60's, died 1202 BC. (Maat, Egyptian goddess of truth and justice.

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Source: http://www.geocities.com/amuse_amenace/egypt.htm