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Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

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  • #51
    Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

    Here is what an Armenian says about this matter.

    *********************************

    Armenia Cradle of Civilization


    By Gevork Nazaryan

    Mt. Ararat, in the Armenian Highland, the final resting place of Noah’s Ark and the point of rebirth of life on earth. Mt. Ararat is located in the heart of Armenia and the world. Since prehistoric times Ararat has been a Holy Mountain and a Holy land for the people of the ancient world. The Summerians, an ancient peoples and one of the first civilizations in the world called Ararat, Arrata. In their great epic poems of Gilgamesh and Arrata, they call of land of their ancestors, the Arratans in the Highlands of Armenia. The Summerians also in their great poems describe, the Great Flood and the rebirth of life. The Summerians had a very close connection with the Land of Ararat and considered it as their ancestral homeland (some historians and archaeologists believe, that the Summerians initially lived in Northern Mesopotamia and Armenian Highland).

    The Egyptians, too believed that life began from a mountain, surrounded by water. The Egyptians, too had since ancient times close connections with the people of Ararat. The great pharaohs many times married into the noble and royal families of ancient Armenian kingdom of Mittani. Their friendship and cooperation with the Kingdom of Mittani and close connections stretched from the Kingdom’s period into the Hyksos and Hurrian dynasties in Egypt from the Armenian Highland. The Holy Bible and the Hebrew scriptures too, tell us of the Great Flood and Noah’s Ark. Forty days of the Great Flood, which symbolizes the long time of the Flood and rains( the number forty in ancient civilizations, meant a lot, in Armenian Folklore it even had a significant and symbolic importance). When the rain stops and the water secedes, Noah descents from upon the Holy Mt. Ararat into the Araratian valley of Armenia. He advises his three sons too go from Armenia, into all corners of the known world to repopulate the world. Japhet, Noah’s oldest son decides to stay with Noah in Armenia and becomes the forefather of the Armenian people.

    The Armenians since those times have considered Ararat as the Holiest place in the world. Josephus, a Hebrew Historian of first century A.D. writes that the Armenian people still remembered, and knew the place of Noah’s Ark. Agathangelos, a IV th century A.D. Armenian Historian, records that Armenian king Trdat ( Tiridates) III Arshakuni built the monastery of Hripsime, from the stones brought from Mt. Ararat, which were considered Holy. Another Armenian Historian, Pavstos Buzand, writes that Archbishop Hakob of Mtsbin in IV th century A.D. made an expedition or Holy pilgrimage to Noah’s Ark, by climbing from the Northeastern part of Mt. Ararat and half way during their journey as the historian writes God, stopped them and told them that no mortal human being can see, or touch the Ark.

    God instead sends out an Angel with a board from the Ark, which the Angel gives to Archbishop (the board from the Ark to this day is still kept in the St. Echmiatsin’s Museum of the Church as one of the most precious and holiest relics, along with other priceless objects from the Churches 1700 year history). In the XIII th century A.D. a French traveler named Ruebrouque, wrote in his diary, that the Armenians considered Mt. Ararat as Holy Ground, and they did not climb or get close to the Mountain, not because of its impregnability, but because of its Holiness and Gods direction of not getting close to the Mountain. As one Armenian told Ruebrouque " no one should climb the mountain, it is the cradle of the world". Indeed, Holy Mt. Ararat is the symbol of Armenia and Armenians and will be so forever with Gods Holy Blessing of the Cradle of Civilization, Armenia.

    "Egyptologists have hinted the Egyptian fascination with the pyramid to this belief. The Egyptians had since ancient times developed close connections with the people of Ararat. The great pharaohs often married into the noble and royal families of ancient Armenian kingdom of Mittani, Queen Nefertiti being one of the most notable representatives of Mitanni princesses on the Egyptian throne. Their friendship and cooperation with the Kingdom of Mittani and intimate connections stretched from the Kingdom's period into the Hyksos and Hurrian dynasties (XVI th dynasty) in Egypt from the Armenian Highland. The Holy Bible and the Hebrew scriptures too, tell us of the Great Flood and Noah's Ark. Forty days of the Great Flood, which symbolizes the long period of time of the Flood and constant precipitation (the number forty in ancient civilizations, meant a lot, in Armenian Folklore it even had a significant and symbolic importance)."

    Source: http://www.geocities.com/paris/leftb...onicle100.html

    Additional information on the Hurrians and the Mitanni:

    The Hurrian and Mitanni - Kingdoms of the Armenian Highlands


    The weakening of the Semitic states in Mesopotamia after 1550 enabled the Hurrians to penetrate deeper into this region, where they founded numerous small states in the eastern parts of Anatolia, Mesopotamia, and Syria. The Hurrians came from northwestern Iran, but until recently very little was known about their early history. After 1500, isolated dynasties appeared with Indo- Aryan names, but the significance of this is disputed. The presence of Old Indian technical terms in later records about horse breeding and the use of the names of Indian gods (such as, for example, Indra and Varuna) in some compacts of state formerly led several scholars to assume that numerous groups of Aryans, closely related to the Indians, pushed into Anatolia from the northeast. They were also credited with the introduction of the light war chariot with spoked wheels. This conclusion, however, is by no means established fact. So far it has not been possible to appraise the numbers and the political and cultural influence of the Aryans in Anatolia and Mesopotamia relative to those of the Hurrians.

    [...]

    The kingdom of Mitanni was a feudal state led by a warrior nobility of Aryan or Hurrian origin. Frequently horses were bred on their large landed estates. Documents and contract agreements in Syria often mention a chariot-warrior caste that also constituted the social upper class in the cities. The aristocratic families usually received their landed property as an inalienable fief. Consequently, no documents on the selling of landed property are to be found in the great archives of Akkadian documents and letters discovered in Nuzi, near Kirkuk. The prohibition against selling landed property was often dodged, however, with a stratagem: the previous owner "adopted" a willing buyer against an appropriate sum of money. The wealthy lord Tehiptilla was "adopted" almost 200 times, acquiring tremendous holdings of landed property in this way without interference by the local governmental authorities. He had gained his wealth through trade and commerce and through a productive two-field system of agriculture (in which each field was cultivated only once in two years). For a long time, Prince Shilwa-Teshub was in charge of the royal governmental administration in the district capital. Sheep breeding was the basis for a woolen industry, and textiles collected by the palace were exported on a large scale. Society was highly structured in classes, ranks, and professions. The judiciary, patterned after the Babylonian model, was well organized; the documents place heavy emphasis on correct procedure.

    Native sources on the religion of the Hurrians of the Mitanni kingdom are limited; about their mythology, however, much is known from related Hittite and Ugaritic myths. Like the other peoples of the ancient Middle East, the Hurrians worshiped gods of various origins. The king of the gods was the weather god Teshub. According to the myths, he violently deposed his father Kumarbi; in this respect he resembled the Greek god Zeus, who deposed his father Kronos. The war chariot of Teshub was drawn by the bull gods Seris ("Day") and Hurris ("Night"). Major sanctuaries of Teshub were located at Arrapkha (modern Kirkuk) and at Halab (modern Aleppo) in Syria. In the east his consort was the goddess of love and war Shaushka, and in the west the goddess Hebat (Hepat); both were similar to the Ishtar-Astarte of the Semites. The sun god Shimegi and the moon god Kushuh, whose consort was Nikkal, the Ningal of the Sumerians, were of lesser rank. More important was the position of the Babylonian god of war and the underworld, Nergal. In northern Syria the god of war Astapi and the goddess of oaths Ishara are attested as early as the 3rd millennium BC. In addition, a considerable importance was attributed to impersonal numina such as heaven and earth as well as to deities of mountains and rivers. In the myths the terrible aspect of the gods often prevails over indications of a benevolent attitude. The cults of sacrifices and other rites are similar to those known from the neighbouring countries; many Hurrian rituals were found in Hittite Anatolia. There is abundant evidence for magic and oracles.

    Temple monuments of modest dimensions have been unearthed; in all probability, specific local traditions were a factor in their design. The dead were probably buried outside the settlement. Small artifacts, particularly seals, show a peculiar continuation of Babylonian and Assyrian traditions in their preference for the naturalistic representation of figures. There were painted ceramics with finely drawn decorations (white on a dark background). The strong position of the royal house was evident in the large palaces, existing even in district capitals. The palaces were decorated with frescoes. Because only a few Mitanni settlements have been unearthed in Mesopotamia, knowledge of Mitanni arts and culture is as yet insufficient.

    Source: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/Gilgamesh/hurrian.html
    Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

    Նժդեհ


    Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #52
      Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

      For the record, I have heard from sources that Queen Neffertiti of Egypt was of Armenian origin and it is said above that she was indeed a Mittani princess and the Mittanis are related to the Pro-to Armenian Hurrians. And we all know that Queen Cleopatra was Greek originated from Greece.

      It is known throughout history the decadence of Cleopatra; yet Queen Neffertiti was a decent queen unlike Cleopatra.
      Last edited by Anoush; 01-25-2009, 07:40 PM.

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      • #53
        Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

        Armenian jan, medsabes shenorhagal em havelyal "site"eroun hamar. Yes al shad arachnahert tebrotsagan em yeghads azkayin ou enthanour badmoutyan mech minchev yergrortagan varjaran yev shad ge sireyi badmoutyoun gartal ou kidnal anonts masin. Ador hamar shad ge kenahadem ays badmoutyan iroghoutyounnere, manavant vor mer azkayin badmoutyounnern en yev meds hebardank ge peren angasgads polor Hayerous hamar.

        Teyev menatsyal ashxarhe meds masamp chi kider ays iroghoutyounnere yev masnavorabes bahads e vor irenk paylin ashxarhi vera payts voch menk; sagayn mezi hamar aveli garevor e ayjem vor kone menk Hayeres kidnank, hebardanank yev mer abaka serounte ge housank vor kone sharounage mer Hayabahbanman oughin yev pan men al aveltsene ays polor herashalikneroun vera!!!

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        • #54
          Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

          Originally posted by Armenian View Post
          Anoush jan, what you have heard is correct, but it has to be explained in better terms. The 'style' of architecture represented by the Greco-Roman inspired Garni temple in Armenia seems to have originated within the Armenian highlands and perhaps Egypt. The same applies to Greco-Roman arts. It needs to be said here that many aspects of Roman society was also effected/influenced by the ancient Etruscan. And if looked closely, you would see that the Etruscans themselves originated in Asia Minor...

          What most Armenians, including our self-hating pseudo-historians in America, don't take into account when speaking of the classical architecture of Greeks and Romans is the Urartian 'temple of Musasir' that preceded classical Greek and Roman architecture.

          Here is an image of the temple. Notice the stairs leading up to a platform where a box like building sits surrounded by columns supporting a pitched roof: http://www.arthistory.upenn.edu/smr0.../Slide5.15.jpg

          Here is more information on the temple: http://www.geocities.com/paris/leftb...onicle400.html

          Now, explain to me how the first century AD Roman funded temple at Garni is only a reflection of what Greeks or Romans produced? When have you heard an Armenian or a western historian bring up the temple at Musasir in their analysis of classical architecture? I haven't heard it yet. What I only hear is how the Garni temple is a Roman architecture in Armenia...
          The above is a garbled version of a probable connection between Urartian temples and temple storehouses (8th-6th century BC) and the multi-columned Iranian audience hall architecture (apadana) from the 6th-5th century BC.
          However, Iranian audience halls are very different from Roman-period temples and nobody who built the Garni temple would have had those earlier forms in mind when designing it. Garni is an example of the Roman architectural style, it came directly from Rome and it did not emerge in Armenia from an independant architectural tradition. You can find the Urartu to Iran to Greece to Rome connections mentioned in all good books about classical architecture. If you have't heard about them, you just haven't been looking at the right books.

          BTW, the word "apadana" is still preserved in Armenian as "aparank", meaning palace.
          Plenipotentiary meow!

          Comment


          • #55
            Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

            Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
            The above is a garbled version of a probable connection between Urartian temples and temple storehouses (8th-6th century BC) and the multi-columned Iranian audience hall architecture (apadana) from the 6th-5th century BC.
            However, Iranian audience halls are very different from Roman-period temples and nobody who built the Garni temple would have had those earlier forms in mind when designing it. Garni is an example of the Roman architectural style, it came directly from Rome and it did not emerge in Armenia from an independant architectural tradition. You can find the Urartu to Iran to Greece to Rome connections mentioned in all good books about classical architecture. If you have't heard about them, you just haven't been looking at the right books.

            BTW, the word "apadana" is still preserved in Armenian as "aparank", meaning palace.
            Carry on in this fashion. Thank you.

            Comment


            • #56
              Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

              Originally posted by jgk3 View Post
              Carry on in this fashion. Thank you.
              The fashion I wanted was to say that "Armenian's" Armenology thread is full of pseudo-science, pseudo-history, and pseudo-archaeology. But it seems that discussion along those lines is not to be permitted here.
              Last edited by bell-the-cat; 01-26-2009, 08:15 PM.
              Plenipotentiary meow!

              Comment


              • #57
                Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

                it is permitted here: http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=16002

                Comment


                • #58
                  Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

                  Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                  The above is a garbled version of a probable connection between Urartian temples and temple storehouses (8th-6th century BC) and the multi-columned Iranian audience hall architecture (apadana) from the 6th-5th century BC.
                  Perhaps they are "connected" or related to Persian constructions... However, if I'm not mistaken, the earliest major Persian constructions date back to the 6th century BC. Urartian constructions, be it fortresses, temples or palaces predate Persian ones by hundreds of years. So, logic would state, the 'connection' or 'relation' is from Urartu to Persia.

                  Moreover, complex constructions of Catal Huyuk, Gobekli Tepe, Sumer and perhaps Metsamor, predate Egyptian constructions as well.

                  No matter how one looks at it, based on the available evidences in archeology, anthropology and linguistics, the origin and epicenter of advanced early human civilization was in the Armenian Highlands.

                  For reasons yet undisclosed, western academia which is naturally led by organized Jewry (yes, ethnicity is important when it becomes an obvious demographic factor) refuses to even seriously discuss this.

                  Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                  However, Iranian audience halls are very different from Roman-period temples and nobody who built the Garni temple would have had those earlier forms in mind when designing it. Garni is an example of the Roman architectural style, it came directly from Rome and it did not emerge in Armenia from an independant architectural tradition.
                  Let's take another look: A box/basilica shaped building surrounded by tall columns supporting a pitched roof, placed on a high platform with stairs leading up to it and has statues of mythological beasts protecting the entrance...

                  Again, Urartian constructions predates Greco-Roman structures by centuries... Yet the Garni Temple which looks almost identical to the Musasir Temple was a "Roman" structure, in your opinion?

                  The Garni Temple was simply a Roman funded construction. Greco-Roman architectures were reinterpretations of Urartian, Egyptian and Sumerian architectures...

                  Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                  You can find the Urartu to Iran to Greece to Rome connections mentioned in all good books about classical architecture. If you have't heard about them, you just haven't been looking at the right books.
                  Yes, I agree. It's Urartu - to Iran - to Greece - to Rome...

                  Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                  BTW, the word "apadana" is still preserved in Armenian as "aparank", meaning palace.
                  There are many ancient Persian/Parthian terms preserved in the Armenian language due to the close political union that existed between Armenian kingdoms and the Persian empire before Armenia's adoption of Christianity...

                  What's your point; that Armenian has Persian lone words in it?

                  And your point is?

                  Do you know that English is one of the world's most bastardized languages?

                  The word for "palace" in Armenian is "palat." As a matter of fact, "aparank" is seldom used in modern Armenian.

                  Note: I have 'never' claimed that we Armenians were the originators of this prehistoric civilization... Although such a conviction would not be too far-fetched, I, nonetheless, would not be able to back it up by hard evidence. Such a statement can only be a conjecture based on a plausible theory. What I have said is that we Armenians are the survivors/remnants of the native tribes of the Armenian Highlands that gave birth to human civilization.
                  Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                  Նժդեհ


                  Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

                    Originally posted by Armenian View Post
                    You know I love melodrama, Anon. My melodrama makes this place exciting. No? But your less than intellectual comments regarding Nefertiti's origin created anything but an intellectual atmosphere. I don't go to loggerheads with you regarding economics (your area of expertise),
                    Why not? You should. I have taken classes in economics but that in no way makes me an expert, nor have I claimed expertise. Being an expert in something requires years of study, training and working in that particular field. With that said, neither you nor I are experts in the true sense of the word - maybe for internet purposes. In fact, you displayed you aren't ignorant of economics when we have talked about it. Does someone have dibs on certain topics and others do not? And just because I may have read a few more books, does that make your viewpoints any less worthy of being aired? Why do you presume there are intellectual Berlin walls regarding certain topics?

                    Originally posted by Armenian View Post
                    likewise when it comes to Armenology I would expect you to at least do some research about what I am talking about before you attempt to form an opinion.
                    As far as your area of "expertise," that does not in any way make peoples' contributions invalid. I was not even making absolute claims. I was merely pointing out that nationalist historians often times take evidence that fits their mold and project their viewpoints into the past, and all sides have done this, Europeans, Afrocentrists, even Armenians. That is ahistorical. Historiography does not work that way.

                    After all, one can very well claim Nefertiti was more Asian than anything else.



                    Furthermore, here is an interesting entry by a *gasp* Jewish historian:

                    Eusebius, writing in the early 4th century, quoted fragments of Eupolemus, a now-lost xxxish historian of the 2nd century BC, as saying that "around the time of Abraham, the Armenians invaded the Syrians". This may correspond approximately to the arrival of the Mitanni, since Abraham is traditionally assumed at around the 17th century BC. The association of Mitanni with Urartu, and of Urartu with Armenia plays a certain role in Armenian nationalist historiography.[17]

                    Some Kurdish scholars believe that one of their clans, the Mattini which live in the same geographical region, preserves the name of Mitanni [4].


                    Are the Mitanni Armenian? No they are not. In one of your videos, you accused either Russell or Ronald Suny of saying that Armenian origins are a result of "intermingling", yet if you sit here and claim the Mittani = Armenian, then surely there was some intermingling, no? Please address this because maybe I'm confused.
                    Achkerov kute.

                    Comment


                    • #60
                      Re: Հայաբանութիւն - Armenology

                      Originally posted by Anonymouse View Post
                      Why not? You should. I have taken classes in economics but that in no way makes me an expert, nor have I claimed expertise.
                      I haven't taken any serious courses on economic nor do I self-educate myself on the topic. So I wont debate it...

                      Originally posted by Anonymouse View Post
                      As far as your area of "expertise," that does not in any way make peoples' contributions invalid. I was not even making absolute claims. I was merely pointing out that nationalist historians often times take evidence that fits their mold and project their viewpoints into the past, and all sides have done this, Europeans, Afrocentrists, even Armenians. That is ahistorical. Historiography does not work that way.
                      What valid contribution were you providing with your comments regarding Nefertiti's origin? For some reason, you were simply attempting to belittle/undermine Armenology. I don't know what's your end game here, Anon.

                      Originally posted by Anonymouse View Post
                      After all, one can very well claim Nefertiti was more Asian than anything else...
                      You see Anon, you are doing it again! Stop the BS, the established 'evidence states' Nefertiti was a - MITANNI!!!

                      Look up Mitanni, they were related to Hurrians. Look up Hurrians, they are one of the major elements within our national makeup. Where have I claimed Nefertiti was Armenian? I have only said she was from the region of historic Armenia. She is "Armenian" in a certain limited sense.

                      What don't you understand about this? What is your intention?

                      Originally posted by Anonymouse View Post
                      Are the Mitanni Armenian? No they are not. In one of your videos, you accused either Russell or Ronald Suny of saying that Armenian origins are a result of "intermingling", yet if you sit here and claim the Mittani = Armenian, then surely there was some intermingling, no? Please address this because maybe I'm confused.
                      The Mitanni were Armenian Highlanders and they were offshoots of us Armenians. Why are you so incensed about this issue? I have always claimed that Armenians are a mix of Anatolian and Caucasian nations/tribes. This does not mean Armenians are racially mixed.
                      Last edited by Armenian; 01-27-2009, 12:24 PM.
                      Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                      Նժդեհ


                      Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                      Comment

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