Etymology of Karabakh

[SevSpitak]

Karabakh's (Ղարաբաղ, Karabağ) etymology is believed to have derived from the Turkish kara (black) and Persian bagh (garden). It sounds absurd to me because there is no such thing as a black garden in Karabakh.

It may possibly be something similar to Akdamar. In Turkish, one may relate Akdamar to white (ak) vein (damar). But that's completely abstract, and we all know that Akdamar comes from Armenian Akhtamar (which has its own folk story). The same pattern may probably be applied to Karabakh if you consider this:

[...]proposed by Bagrat Ulubabyan, [...] [Karabakh] has a Turkic-Armenian origin, meaning "Greater Baghk" [Մեծ Բաղք], a reference to Ktish-Baghk (later: Dizak), one of the principalities of Artsakh during the eleventh to thirteenth centuries. [Article on Wikipedia]

I had once read that "kara" may also mean "far" in Armenian. I don't know if that's true (can't find where I read this).

Considering Armenians ruled the area from the 9th to 18th centuries, the region cannot easily have inherited a foreign name. Unless, of course, if we argue Karabakh is the foreign name given to Artsakh (similar to how Armenia is the foreign name for Hayastan). But Armenians themselves refer to the region as Gharabagh sometimes..

Does anyone know more about this subject? It would be nice if someone would also explain what Ktish-Baghk was.

[jgk3]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

Karabagh and Nagorno Karabagh are not equivalent. Karabagh includes a large portion of the vast plain that is east of Artsakh/Nagorno (Mountainous) Karabagh, in Azerbaijan. Armenians were not a majority in those lands at least not for a very long time, and were easily ethnically cleansed there during the genocide and afterwards. In Artsakh on the other hand, with its imposing mountains, we always constituted a majority, and the DNA of native Artsakhtsis has not experienced much mixing with neighbouring populations, including Armenian ones. Those Armenians have been there for a long time, without stop, and they're not going anywhere.

I don't know any conclusive truth about the origins of the name for Karabagh, which as I mentioned, is a territorial name that includes Nagorno Karabagh (Artsakh), which we as Armenians refer to as Gharabagh sometimes because it's the only Karabagh we consider. The same is not true for the Azeris, who already have the plains of Karabagh and have their sights on the mountainous, western portion of this land, which we dominate.

[ashot24]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

Karabakh is formed from the adjective word of Turkic origin Kara (meaning black) and the noun of Persian origin باغ ("bagh" meaning garden).

In Turkic languages, we can see that (in Azeri) Qarabağ and (in Turkish) Karabağ derive exactly from this loanword, and it influenced other languages to do it as well such (in Russian) Карабах and (in Spanish) Karabaj, but in Armenian we have the situation that we pronounce the word Ղարաբաղ. The reason may be the same linguistic procedure which took us to pronounce the name of the city of Kars either as Կարս or as Ղարս.

Now, I know (and I believe I am right) the name of (Mountainous) Karabakh meaning "(Mountainous) Black Garden" refers to the fact that the soil in Karabakh is very black (meaning it's very rich in minerals), and the vegetation and nature in there is so beautiful and pure that it made it look as a beautiful garden surrounded by the mountains.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

I know about that (that it comes from a Turkic-Persian word), but I'm interested in Bagrat Ulubabyan's theory. We all know how Turks like to distort realities to something convenient for them (Akdamar [Axtamar], Ankara [Angora], Islambol/Istanbul [Greek Stanbolis], to name a few), so I want to know what exactly Bagrat Ulubabyan is saying to come to his conclusion. Even though Karabakh's etymology is widely accepted as such, considering it comes from a Turkish point of view, I'd look into it deeper.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

I'm not sure how "Greater Baghk" relates to Karabakh combining Turkish and Armenian.

Only thing I can think of is gara - means like "station" or "depot" in Turkish which would make sense when referring to a fortress or stronghold.

Apparently Ktish Baghk was a Kingdom during the rule of the Aranshahik dynasty...

The Cathedral of St. John the Baptist’s courtyard has a number of other memorials including numerous khachkars—unique-to-Armenia stone crosses. Near the northern wall of the Cathedral stands a large khachkar commemorating Hasan Jalal Vahtangian’s daughter Hatun, whose mother and Hasan Jalal’s wife, Mamkan, was the daughter of the last ruler of Artsakh’s southern Kingdom of Baghk. An inscription in the lower part of the khachkar reads: “I, Hasan, son of Vahtang, erected this cross [in memory of] my daughter Hatun, and on behalf of her mother, the Queen—daughter of the King of Baghk.” [12]

[12] Hewsen, Robert H. Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press, 2001, reference: Kingdom of Ktish-Baghk, p. 120

http://www.gandzasar.com/cathedral-o...hn-baptist.htm

Also..

Dizak (Armenian: Դիզակ), also known as Ktish after its main stronghold, was a medieval Armenian principality in the historical Artsakh and later one of the five melikdoms of Karabakh, which included the southern third of Khachen (present-day Nagorno-Karabakh) and from the 13th century also the canton of Baghk of Syunik[1]. The founder of this principality was Esayi abu-Muse, in the 9th century. In the 16-18th centuries Dizak was ruled by the Armenian Melik-Avanian dynasty, a branch of the House of Syunik-Khachen [1]. The seat of the princes of Dizak was the town of Togh (or Dogh) with the adjacent ancient fortress of Ktish. One of the last princes of Dizak, Esayi Melik-Avanian, was killed by Ibrahim Khalil Khan in 1781, after a long-lasting resistance in the fortress of Ktish.

Today the name "Dizak" is often used to refer to the province Hadrut of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.

http://www.warontheeasternfront.com/...iew,mediawiki/

[SevSpitak]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

I'm not sure how "Greater Baghk" relates to Karabakh combining Turkish and Armenian.

That's exactly what I'm curious to know. I can't seem to find any information on how he comes to that conclusion. All my research links to the same thing it as on wikipedia. Still, though, thanks for the info you provided.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

After I read the opening post of this thread, I went and checked a map of Urartu and found out that the region of Karabakh was called Kuhalbani. The -i is probably a suffix, so if we take Kuhalban, it sounds really similar to Karabakh, even all the vowels are in the same exact places. I know there is only so much you can decipher through name associations, but sometimes it can point you in the right direction. I don't know if Kuhalbani was the name of the region, or just the name of the dominant tribe of that region... either way its relevant information.

Other interesting things are that today's Siunik was known as Skiuti, Javakhk was known as Zarakha and Dsopk was known as Tsupani. Here is the map: http://www.armenian-history.com/imag...map-Tushpa.jpg

[SevSpitak]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

After I read the opening post of this thread, I went and checked a map of Urartu and found out that the region of Karabakh was called Kuhalbani. The -i is probably a suffix, so if we take Kuhalban, it sounds really similar to Karabakh, even all the vowels are in the same exact places. I know there is only so much you can decipher through name associations, but sometimes it can point you in the right direction. I don't know if Kuhalbani was the name of the region, or just the name of the dominant tribe of that region... either way its relevant information.

Other interesting things are that today's Siunik was known as Skiuti, Javakhk was known as Zarakha and Dsopk was known as Tsupani. Here is the map: http://www.armenian-history.com/imag...map-Tushpa.jpg

If you look to the south (where Kurdistan is generally placed in future maps as Goryene, Corduene, etc, is "Kurti." If you listen to Kurdish, you can easily sense a slight similarity between Kurdish and Armenian:
Ez Kurd im - I am Kurd
Yes Hay em - I am Armenian

I wouldn't be surprised if Kurds were also an ethnic minority in Urartu, who were later assimilated like Armenians (Kurti in a region later known as Kurdistan is similar to Hayasa being in a region known later as Pokr Hayastan/Hayk, or Urmenu and Arme in a region later known as Armenia).

Note that the regions usually accepted as Hayasa-Azzi have names that remind us of "Armenia" (Urmeayin, Ereshtuni [e.g.: Bagratuni]. I don't see it on this map, but there's Urmenu-hini and Arme in the region as well) (click here for more)

About Kuhalbani, it's sound, but very vague. It might have been a distortion of an ancient regional name that became associated with words existing in the Turkish and Farsi languages of the Turkoman(Kara/Ak Koyunlu) empire. That's the point of this thread. I'm putting the etymology of "Karabakh" to question for the same reason one would question the etymology of "Ankara," "Akdamar," "Islambol," etc. I'd like to, for once, look further into it. Does anyone know more about the research of Bagrat Ulubabyan?

[SevSpitak]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

Note that it's Ataturk's government that renamed regional names to the current Turkish names. Ankara was known as Angora until the 1920s. Akhtamar as well. Istanbul was known as Stanbolis, Bolis/Polis, Constantinople. The Turkish pronunciation of Stanbolis was Istanbol (like Sport = S[ı]por, Smyrna = Izmir). They carefully chose names that make the regions sound more "Turkish," which was also a policy applied to their language. Don't forget that Ottomans never really considered themselves "TURKISH," but Osmanli muslims. Turkish nationalism began in the 19th-20th centuries with the Young Turks, and they spread their nationalism to the Islamic Musavat party of the Caucasus. They, then, renamed themselves "Turkish Musavat Party" due to this, and followed the same pattern as their Young Turk counterparts in their pan-turanist Azerbaijani republic.

Therefore, I really don't have confidence in these modern names.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Etymology of Karabakh

I can't find anything on the net. I'm sure it's written in one of his books, probably "Artsakhi patmutyune" http://openlibrary.org/b/OL119004M

Don't forget that Ottomans never really considered themselves "TURKISH," but Osmanli muslims. Turkish nationalism began in the 19th-20th centuries with the Young Turks, and they spread their nationalism to the Islamic Musavat party of the Caucasus. They, then, renamed themselves "Turkish Musavat Party" due to this, and followed the same pattern as their Young Turk counterparts in their pan-turanist Azerbaijani republic.

Therefore, I really don't have confidence in these modern names.

I was also wondering why the french/english/italians called it the Ottoman Empire when it should be referred to as Osman Empire.