Caucasian Albania

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Caucasian Albania

A google search for "V.L.Velichko: Who are Armenians?" gets a mere 2 pages, some 50 results, and all are obvious Azeri propaganda websites.
Same for the second posting "The famous Russian historian, V.L.Velichko, wrote" again it gets only 2 pages.
"V.L.Velichko" + Armenians gets more, but still not that many, 789. Maybe most of the places these have been posted don't show up on seach engines or maybe I was wrong and it isn't that widely reposted.

I first came across the name V.L.Velichko a few years ago in the context of early examples of Georgian propaganda concerning Armenian and Georgian architecture. Didn't know the Azeri's were using him in a modern context - they must be scraping the barrel.

I first read about Velichko when an Azeri quoted from one of his works. I knew this guy had to be anti-Armenian and sure enough he was. The thing with Azeris is if a book, article, etc. does not include anti-Armenian sentiment than it is of no use to them.

[Raynec]

Re: Caucasian Albania

As with many ancient peoples, the origin of the Armenians contains elements of myth and unresolved scholarly arguments. Many historians give a rather over-simplified account of the origin of the Armenian people. According to the Greek Historian, Herodotus, the Armenians had originally lived in Thrace from where they crossed to Phrygia in Asia Minor and had then gradually moved west of the Euphrates River to what became Armenia. The Historian states that Armenians came from two directions, one group from the west, or Phrygia, and the other from the Southeast, or the Mesopotamian and Zagros region. In other words, according to the ancient Greeks, the Armenians were not the original inhabitants of the region.

Other Historians indicate that from the ninth to the sixth centuries B.C., a large part of historical Armenia, called Ararat by its contemporary neighbors, comprised the Kingdom of Urartu. This Kingdom disintegrated during the middle of the sixth century whereupon the native tribes, including the Armen and the Nayiri groups were unified and became part of the dominant Hayassa group.

Their Indo-European language was imposed on the conquered Urartuans, who spoke a non-Aryan language. Thus did the Armenian Nation take form, its people being the political, ethnic, and cultural successors to the Hurrians, pre-Hittites, Hayassas, Nayiris and Urartuans. This newly formed nation was called "Hai" after the name of the Hayassa tribal federation and the country "Hayastan". The neighboring peoples called the Armenians "Armen" and their country "Armenia" after the Armens.
Today, Armenians can be found in every corner of the globe. Although, the Armenian people are a very small ethnic group, Armenians have made significant contributions in every field of endeavor. Long known as excellent educators, scientists, artisans, musicians, and merchants, Armenians have used their skills to benefit the countries that have given them a home.

A History of the Armenian People, Volume I, Pre-History to 1500 A.D., by George A. Bournoutian

Armenian scholar, B. Ishkhanian, wrote in 1916: "The Armenians residing in Nagorno-Karabakh are partly aborigines and descendants of the ancient Albanians ..., and partly refugees from Turkey and Iran, for whom Azerbaijani lands offered a refuge from persecution and oppression."

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).

Also it is interesting to note that according to maps included in the "History of the Armenian people" (Vol I, Erevan, 1951-52) by the well-known Armenian historian, S.T. Eremyan, both banks of Kura were included as part of Caucasian Albania in II century B.C. It depicted the regions of the right bank of Kura, such as Sakashena, Otena (Utik), Caspiana (Paytakaran) and Orhistena (Artsakh) as Albanian.

Meanwhile, the well-known German-born (d. 1930) Soviet scientist, historian and scholar, V.V.Bartol'd also mentions the tribe of Chols, who too were of Oghuz stock, and lived in Caucasian Albania in B.C. era.

Today, many direct descendants of the Albanians -- Gels, Legs, Kryzes, Hinalugs, Alpans and Udins -- live in Azerbaijan. But only the latter have kept their original religion and language. These are in addition to the Albanian tribes of Chols, Gargars and others, who have since merged into modern-day Azerbaijanis.
A little information from the Kitab-e Dede Qorgud epic, orally recited since at least the ninth-eleventh centuries. It mentions Alpan and Uruz, who were early Albanian kings (in B.C.) It also mentiones Gazan-khan, who is also mentioned in VII-century "History of Albania" by Moisey Kalankatuiski (Musa Kalankatly).

Starting in the eighth century a large part of the population of Caucasian Albania was forcibly converted into Islam under the Arab caliphate. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.)

[Armanen]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Even if Armenians came from Phyrgia, we were still there many centuries before the turks came and before the formation of the caucasian tatars as a cohesive ethnic group in the 16th century.

[Raynec]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Even if Armenians came from Phyrgia, we were still there many centuries before the turks came and before the formation of the caucasian tatars as a cohesive ethnic group in the 16th century.

Armenians came from Phyrgia to Western Anatolia .Not Caucasus before 18 century.

"1 million out of 1 million and 300 thousand of Armenians, residing in Transcaucasia were not aboriginal residents and they came there from our lands."
N.I.Shavrov. New challenges to Russian business in the Transcaucasus - upcoming sale of Mugan to aliens. S-Petersburg. 1911, p. 59-61.

Another respected and well-known Armenian scholar, Dr. George Bournoutian writes:

"prior to the Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenia, and the Muslims (Azerbaijani) 80 percent; following Russian annexation, 57,000 Armenian immigrants arrived from Persia and the Ottoman Empire and 35,000 Muslims emigrated from Eastern Armenia. By 1832, therefore, the Armenians formed...half of the population".

"The Ethnic Composition and the Socioconomic Condition of Eastern Armenia in the First Half of the Nineteenth Century," in Suny, _Transcaucasia_, 79; see also Bournoutian, _Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule, 1807-1928: A Political and Socio-Economic Study of the Khanate of Erivan on the Eve of the Russian Conquest_ (Malibu. Calif.:Undena Publications, 1982), p. 76.

According to Encyclopædia Britannica:' 'The Azerbaijanis are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern İran. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Armenians came from Phyrgia to Western Anatolia .Not Caucasus before 18 century.

"1 million out of 1 million and 300 thousand of Armenians, residing in Transcaucasia were not aboriginal residents and they came there from our lands."
N.I.Shavrov. New challenges to Russian business in the Transcaucasus - upcoming sale of Mugan to aliens. S-Petersburg. 1911, p. 59-61.

Another respected and well-known Armenian scholar, Dr. George Bournoutian writes:

"prior to the Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenia, and the Muslims (Azerbaijani) 80 percent; following Russian annexation, 57,000 Armenian immigrants arrived from Persia and the Ottoman Empire and 35,000 Muslims emigrated from Eastern Armenia. By 1832, therefore, the Armenians formed...half of the population".

"The Ethnic Composition and the Socioconomic Condition of Eastern Armenia in the First Half of the Nineteenth Century," in Suny, _Transcaucasia_, 79; see also Bournoutian, _Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule, 1807-1928: A Political and Socio-Economic Study of the Khanate of Erivan on the Eve of the Russian Conquest_ (Malibu. Calif.:Undena Publications, 1982), p. 76.

According to Encyclopædia Britannica:' 'The Azerbaijanis are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern İran. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.

I rest my case.You really should learn history and know the borders of Armenia trough the ages

[Mukuch]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Armenians came from Phyrgia to Western Anatolia .Not Caucasus before 18 century.

"1 million out of 1 million and 300 thousand of Armenians, residing in Transcaucasia were not aboriginal residents and they came there from our lands."
N.I.Shavrov. New challenges to Russian business in the Transcaucasus - upcoming sale of Mugan to aliens. S-Petersburg. 1911, p. 59-61.

Another respected and well-known Armenian scholar, Dr. George Bournoutian writes:

"prior to the Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenia, and the Muslims (Azerbaijani) 80 percent; following Russian annexation, 57,000 Armenian immigrants arrived from Persia and the Ottoman Empire and 35,000 Muslims emigrated from Eastern Armenia. By 1832, therefore, the Armenians formed...half of the population".

"The Ethnic Composition and the Socioconomic Condition of Eastern Armenia in the First Half of the Nineteenth Century," in Suny, _Transcaucasia_, 79; see also Bournoutian, _Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule, 1807-1928: A Political and Socio-Economic Study of the Khanate of Erivan on the Eve of the Russian Conquest_ (Malibu. Calif.:Undena Publications, 1982), p. 76.

According to Encyclopædia Britannica:' 'The Azerbaijanis are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern İran. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.

Well I come to only possible conclusion.... AZERBAJANI-TATARO-TURKOID tribes themself do not know where they come from and who they are... what a shame, must be so horible to be a bastard of humanity.

[Raynec]

Re: Caucasian Albania

I rest my case.You really should learn history and know the borders of Armenia trough the ages

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Sevan lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

you must go and learn true history

[Mukuch]

Re: Caucasian Albania

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Sevan lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

you must go and learn true history

I wonder who was ocupying the rest? Median Turks I guess? )))

[Armanen]

Re: Caucasian Albania

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Sevan lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

you must go and learn true history

He is not an authoritative 'Armenian' scholar. He is an idiot and was chased out of Yerevan a few years ago for his bs views, which is what they are, instead of facts, on Armenian history. How about you find some non-azeri sources that show the caucasian tatars being an ethnic group prior to the 16th century? In the 16th century Armenians had already existed for nearly 3,500 years!

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Caucasian Albania

“The name “Azerbaijan” for the Republic of Azerbaijan (Soviet Azerbaijan) was selected on the assumption that the stationing of such as republic would lead to that entity Iranian to become one…this is the reason why the name “Azerbaijan” was selected (for Arran)…anytime when it is necessary to select a name that refers to the territory of the Republic of Azerbaijan, we should/can select the name Arran…”
Quote from Bartold, Soviet academic, politician and foreign office official. See Bartold, V.V., Sochineniia, Tom II, Chast I, Izdatelstvo Vostochnoi Literary, p.217, 1963.

Ptolemy
In his description of Armenia, Ptolemy writes "The greater Armenia borders Colchida, Iberia (Georgia) and Albania (Aghvank) along the River Kur". Elsewhere he adds: "Albania (Aghvank) shares its border in the south with Armenia and Iberia... The cities and villages of Albania (Aghvank) are situated between Iberia and a river that flows from the Caucasus Mountains and joins the River Kur. This river stretches all along Iberia and Albania (Aghvank) and separates them from Armenia".

Plutarch
Plutarch's Lives contains material dealing with Aghvank such as military aid to Tigran the Great of Armenia by Aghvan tribes. Describing Pompey's invasion of Aghbank, their permission to allow the Romans to cross Aghvank and the subsequent, sudden Aghvan rebellion against the Romans, he mentions place names and as it appears from his writings, the rivers Arax and Kur did not meet and Arax flowed into the Caspian without mixing with River Kur. This confirms that Armenia's easternmost border stretched to the Caspian. Mar Anthony's one hundred thousand strong army faced fierce resistance from Phraates in Atrpatakan and according to Plutarch after suffering heavy casualties the Romans crossed the Arax River into Armenia. This confirms that first: the Arax River was (and still is) the border between Atrpatakan and Armenia and second: there was no "azerbaijan" north of the Arax River and third: the two regions north and south of the Arax River were distinct, unrelated and never two parts of a single "azerbaijan".