Nakhichevan

[lampron]

Re: Nakhichevan

You know so little about your own history.

There were no secular Armenian schools before the 19th century. Most Armenians were illiterate before the 19th century. Publications were mostly limited to religious texts until the 19th century. Western Armenians until then knew, and wanted to know, next to nothing about historic Armenia. It was only in the 19th century, as a result of growing secularisation, modernisation, and an increasing sense of national identity, that they started to be concious about historic Armenia and its history and desired to read books about it. By theend of the 19th century that involved the production of proper history books and proper research, but much of the early material produced just involved the compiling of existing religious myths and traditions.

unless you produce evidence, this is going straight to the trash-can!

[lampron]

Re: Nakhichevan

"According to Josephus, the Armenians in the 1st century showed the remains of Noah's ark at a place called αποβατηριον "Place of Descent" (Armenian: Նախիջեւան, Nakhichevan, Ptolemy's Ναξουανα), about 60 miles southeast of the summit of Mount Ararat (ca. 39°04′N 45°05′E / 39.07°N 45.08°E / 39.07; 45.08)

This source obviously confirms that Nakhichevan/Nakhijevan is the original name based on the Armenian meaning of 'Place of Descent'. The Turco-tatars modified this name taking out the 'i' and fabricated a story about its origins to confuse unsuspecting observers

[lampron]

Re: Nakhichevan

I have met the first two ambassadors from Armenia to the US and they were total zeros. Most of them are inept rejects/midlevel USSR functionaries. .

still, there is no excuse for the virtual silence in the international media for the crime of cultural genocide by the Azerbaijani leadership

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

http://www.armenian.ch/forum/Docs/Ju...umUNESCO_E.pdf

According to the above:

"On December 16, 2002, in an official letter addressed to the Director-General of UNESCO, the Minister for foreign affairs again expressed concerns about the renewed attempts of the Azerbaijani authorities to carry out the destruction of the Armenian cemetery and church in Jugha. He suggested that an inspection mission to Nakhijevan should determine the extent of the systematic destruction."

"The national council of Armenians in Nakhijevan submitted several declarations to various international organizations, such as the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS) and UNESCO, requesting them to put under international protection the ancient Armenian monuments that had been destroyed in Nakhijevan from 1999 to 2003."

there are more examples on page 5 and 6 of the article. I dont know why Armenia would refuse diplomatic aid when they asked alot of organizations to take action?

Who are "The national council of Armenians in Nakhijevan"? There are no Armenians in Nachchivan. So it is a meaningless politicised organisation, just like similar Azerbaijani Nagorno Karabakh equivalents.

If in 2002 Armenia at a state level was in any way seriously lobbying the issue, how come, in 2006, Matsuura stated that UNESCO had never even actually asked Azerbaijan if a UNESCO inspection could visit the site! Further to that 2006 meeting, a representative from London said that she had been lobbying for the issue to be raised at the House of Commons and had asked the Armenian Embassy in London to help her with contacts and access and so on, but they had refused. It appears to be the policy of the Armenian Government that the whole issue should be hushed-up at international level, while making occasional for-Armenian-ears-only statements to pretend that they are concerned about the issue and doing somethign about it.

Matsuura himself is probably also complicit in the cover-up. He became Director General of UNESCO the same year as Azerbaijan began its destruction of the site. The very evening after the delegation met him, he went to the opera with the wife of Ilham Aliyev, who happens to be Azerbaijan's UNESCO representative.

[jgk3]

Re: Nakhichevan

http://www.armenian.ch/forum/Docs/Ju...umUNESCO_E.pdf

According to the above:

"On December 16, 2002, in an official letter addressed to the Director-General of UNESCO, the Minister for foreign affairs again expressed concerns about the renewed attempts of the Azerbaijani authorities to carry out the destruction of the Armenian cemetery and church in Jugha. He suggested that an inspection mission to Nakhijevan should determine the extent of the systematic destruction."

"The national council of Armenians in Nakhijevan submitted several declarations to various international organizations, such as the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS) and UNESCO, requesting them to put under international protection the ancient Armenian monuments that had been destroyed in Nakhijevan from 1999 to 2003."

there are more examples on page 5 and 6 of the article. I dont know why Armenia would refuse diplomatic aid when they asked alot of organizations to take action?

Orders from Moscow to Armenian politicians whose sustenance comes from obeying Russian interests, is my bet.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Nakhichevan

With that Paris ambassador, I think it was that he said (or claimed) that he couldn't do anything without getting instructions from Yerevan, and this went on for over a year. I assume he conveyed to Yerevan what the proposed delegation had said was needed. Which would suggest that Yerevan was deliberately obstructing the attempt to meet UNESCOs head - and since the lack of help is continuing that does seem to be the best explanation. Though maybe the ineptitude of the ambassador played a part. You would think that these appointments would be seen as of vital importance for Armenia. But the ambassador in Britain seems to change every year or so, with no discussion and for no apparent reason.

http://www.armenian.ch/forum/Docs/Jugha/Jugha-MemorandumUNESCO_E.pdf

According to the above:

"On December 16, 2002, in an official letter addressed to the Director-General of UNESCO, the Minister for foreign affairs again expressed concerns about the renewed attempts of the Azerbaijani authorities to carry out the destruction of the Armenian cemetery and church in Jugha. He suggested that an inspection mission to Nakhijevan should determine the extent of the systematic destruction."

"The national council of Armenians in Nakhijevan submitted several declarations to various international organizations, such as the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS) and UNESCO, requesting them to put under international protection the ancient Armenian monuments that had been destroyed in Nakhijevan from 1999 to 2003."

there are more examples on page 5 and 6 of the article. I dont know why Armenia would refuse diplomatic aid when they asked alot of organizations to take action?

[jgk3]

Re: Nakhichevan

Bell, Hrai and lampron, refrain from attacks at one another.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

Thanks Bell. This does not surprise me whatsoever. I have met the first two ambassadors from Armenia to the US and they were total zeros. Most of them are inept rejects/midlevel USSR functionaries. They are more symbolic if anything. In the case of the US, the rely far too much on the diaspora to do what the should be doing; we have to hold their hand on just about everything. This is probably true in other places as well. I do have to say that Amb. Tatoul Markarian is a nice change.

With that Paris ambassador, I think it was that he said (or claimed) that he couldn't do anything without getting instructions from Yerevan, and this went on for over a year. I assume he conveyed to Yerevan what the proposed delegation had said was needed. Which would suggest that Yerevan was deliberately obstructing the attempt to meet UNESCOs head - and since the lack of help is continuing that does seem to be the best explanation. Though maybe the ineptitude of the ambassador played a part. You would think that these appointments would be seen as of vital importance for Armenia. But the ambassador in Britain seems to change every year or so, with no discussion and for no apparent reason.

[Joseph]

Re: Nakhichevan

I do not expect you to rise above the level of a worm - so I did not realistically expect you to know anything about the incidents I wrote about. But, because even worms have a sense of self preservation, I would have expected you to assume that these were things you did not know about, and thus not make such a display of your ignorance and your other "qualities".

I took part in the delegation to UNESCO's Paris HQ that I mentioned, so I know all about the extreme difficulties that Armenia's repeated refusal to provide diplomatic support created. Over several years the Armenian ambassador in Paris was asked by those organising the delegation many times to provide assistance to facilitate access to UNESCO, but refused, citing instructions got from Yerevan. When asked, the Armenian embassy also refused to provide a representative to join the delegation for its meeting with the head of UNESCO. Although parliamentarians from Canada and Greece were part of the delegation, UNESCO red tape meant that there had to be some sort of state-level request from a UNESCO country member for the meeting to finally go ahead. However, the Swiss ambassador was eventually persuaded to provide that request, thus scuppering Armenia's attempt to halt the meeting. I think I recall that the Swiss ambassador's involvement had to be off-the-record and secret, because he was not acting on instructions from the Swiss government, but on a personal level.

The process to gain from the European Parliament a specific condemnation of Azerbaijan about the destruction has been going on for years. In 2006, in a previous attempt to raise the matter, the sponsor, the MEP Charles Tannock, almost had to withdraw his resolution because the Armenian government refused to provide him with the evidence he needed to properly present that resolution. He approached me as a last resort (literally the day before he would have been forced to withdraw it), and I was able to provide enough background information to enable him to procede. His resolution was later passed.

This deliberate blocking by the Armenian government continues to this day. Despite repeated approaches, Armenia has again point-blank refused to provide support to those bringing the latest attempt at getting a European Parliament resolution condemning Azerbaijan, as the following diplomatically-worded statement indicates.

http://news.am/eng/news/27509.html

August 11, 2010

This autumn the European Parliament is likely to issue a statement on the destruction of the Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhchivan.

A lot work has been done in this direction and the draft statement has been already submitted to the European Parliament, head of Federation of Armenian Organizations in Belgium Gevorg Minasyan told the reporters in Yerevan. "We have just to get Armenia's support that is a little bit overdue. Nevertheless, I think the process has been launched, and the European Parliament will issue the statement by this autumn", he stressed.

Thanks Bell. This does not surprise me whatsoever. I have met the first two ambassadors from Armenia to the US and they were total zeros. Most of them are inept rejects/midlevel USSR functionaries. They are more symbolic if anything. In the case of the US, the rely far too much on the diaspora to do what the should be doing; we have to hold their hand on just about everything. This is probably true in other places as well. I do have to say that Amb. Tatoul Markarian is a nice change.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

brilliant! So Armenia and Azerbaijan are united in the cover up of the destruction of the Armenian khachkars in Jugha? I have a better one for you to use next time. How about it was the Armenians of Nakhichevan who did it (all were attacked and driven out in 1988 as you know, but never mind about that), in order to give Azerbaijan a bad name?

I took part in the delegation to UNESCO's Paris HQ that I mentioned, so I know all about the extreme difficulties that Armenia's repeated refusal to provide diplomatic support created. Over several years the Armenian ambassador in Paris was asked by those organising the delegation many times to provide assistance to facilitate access to UNESCO, but refused, citing instructions got from Yerevan. When asked, the Armenian embassy also refused to provide a representative to join the delegation for its meeting with the head of UNESCO. Although parliamentarians from Canada and Greece were part of the delegation, UNESCO red tape meant that there had to be some sort of state-level request from a UNESCO country member for the meeting to finally go ahead. However, the Swiss ambassador was eventually persuaded to provide that request, thus scuppering Armenia's attempt to halt the meeting. I think I recall that the Swiss ambassador's involvement had to be off-the-record and secret, because he was not acting on instructions from the Swiss government, but on a personal level.

The process to gain from the European Parliament a specific condemnation of Azerbaijan about the destruction has been going on for years. In 2006, in a previous attempt to raise the matter, the sponsor, the MEP Charles Tannock, almost had to withdraw his resolution because the Armenian government refused to provide him with the evidence he needed to properly present that resolution. He approached me as a last resort (literally the day before he would have been forced to withdraw it), and I was able to provide enough background information to enable him to procede. His resolution was later passed.

This deliberate blocking by the Armenian government continues to this day. Despite repeated approaches, Armenia has again point-blank refused to provide support to those bringing the latest attempt at getting a European Parliament resolution condemning Azerbaijan, as the following diplomatically-worded statement indicates.

http://news.am/eng/news/27509.html

August 11, 2010

This autumn the European Parliament is likely to issue a statement on the destruction of the Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhchivan.

A lot work has been done in this direction and the draft statement has been already submitted to the European Parliament, head of Federation of Armenian Organizations in Belgium Gevorg Minasyan told the reporters in Yerevan. "We have just to get Armenia's support that is a little bit overdue. Nevertheless, I think the process has been launched, and the European Parliament will issue the statement by this autumn", he stressed.