Nakhichevan

[lampron]

Re: Nakhichevan

It is actually the Armenian government that wants the incident hushed-up / kept silent (Azerbaijan simply says it never happened). .

brilliant! So Armenia and Azerbaijan are united in the cover up of the destruction of the Armenian khachkars in Jugha? I have a better one for you to use next time. How about it was the Armenians of Nakhichevan who did it (all were attacked and driven out in 1988 as you know, but never mind about that), in order to give Azerbaijan a bad name?

[gegev]

Re: Nakhichevan

gegev this site seems to be very restrictive.
Is it an active BB or its me the problem?

It isn't, if you search for Nakhidjevan Ethnic Cleanings History, you'll find it easily, in Google it is the first choice.

[levon]

Re: Nakhichevan

Ok, so engage me now with your views, which are much less flawed. I'm trying to say that the Church found use of that story, since it served Armenian national interests, and likely changed it from just a local story in the Ararat plain, to something to be embraced in all places where there is an Armenian church. Churches were the closest thing to tv networks in those days. So its promulgation likely happened through the church, given that it's a Christian institution and hence has complete access to that story.

Again, I'm not saying it happened one way or another, what I'm saying is that logic such as "They probably could do it, and they likely wanted to do it, then they did it" Is flawed, as it infers a conclusion without proof based entirely on what could and was likely to happen. Furthermore, in order to say could and likely you would first have to prove that the church could indeed do that and was likely to do it. And this last part cannot be based on your personal views. Finally, unless you show evidence that the church did do it, your personal views and inferences are worthless.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

Did they??? 19th Century? not in 18th or 17th or 16th century prints, or in written form from earlier centuries? I didn't realize you had a direct line to the spirits of deceased west Armenians to instantly check what they read from which century and how they pronounced what they read!

You know so little about your own history.

There were no secular Armenian schools before the 19th century. Most Armenians were illiterate before the 19th century. Publications were mostly limited to religious texts until the 19th century. Western Armenians until then knew, and wanted to know, next to nothing about historic Armenia. It was only in the 19th century, as a result of growing secularisation, modernisation, and an increasing sense of national identity, that they started to be concious about historic Armenia and its history and desired to read books about it. By theend of the 19th century that involved the production of proper history books and proper research, but much of the early material produced just involved the compiling of existing religious myths and traditions.

[levon]

Re: Nakhichevan

You know so little about your own history.

There were no secular Armenian schools before the 19th century. Most Armenians were illiterate before the 19th century. Publications were mostly limited to religious texts until the 19th century. Western Armenians until then knew, and wanted to know, next to nothing about historic Armenia. It was only in the 19th century, as a result of growing secularisation, modernisation, and an increasing sense of national identity, that they started to be concious about historic Armenia and its history and desired to read books about it. By theend of the 19th century that involved the production of proper history books and proper research, but much of the early material produced just involved the compiling of existing religious myths and traditions.

Where are your sources? Got any to back yourself up?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

I'm not. I guess I shouldn'tve given what I've personally inferred from my own experience of looking into our history, before giving you the source for the facts I've considered.

Don't apologise. The purpose of experience is to be able extrapolate the knowledge you have gained about one subject onto another subject, thus avoiding having to start from scratch with that second subject. That is why we say "knowledge is power".

[levon]

Re: Nakhichevan

Don't apologise. The purpose of experience is to be able extrapolate the knowledge you have gained about one subject onto another subject, thus avoiding having to start from scratch with that second subject. That is why we say "knowledge is power".

I really don't think you should make baseless comments. Either state your sources, for the content in the previous post, or refrain from making statements you cannot back. Frankly, your "experience" in another subject has absolutely no significance in providing credibility for your posts on Armenian History. Either prove what you are claiming, or refrain from making baseless comments relying merely on "your experience".

In your case, it is not "knowledge is power", but "propaganda is power". Prove your points.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

brilliant! So Armenia and Azerbaijan are united in the cover up of the destruction of the Armenian khachkars in Jugha? I have a better one for you to use next time. How about it was the Armenians of Nakhichevan who did it (all were attacked and driven out in 1988 as you know, but never mind about that), in order to give Azerbaijan a bad name?

I took part in the delegation to UNESCO's Paris HQ that I mentioned, so I know all about the extreme difficulties that Armenia's repeated refusal to provide diplomatic support created. Over several years the Armenian ambassador in Paris was asked by those organising the delegation many times to provide assistance to facilitate access to UNESCO, but refused, citing instructions got from Yerevan. When asked, the Armenian embassy also refused to provide a representative to join the delegation for its meeting with the head of UNESCO. Although parliamentarians from Canada and Greece were part of the delegation, UNESCO red tape meant that there had to be some sort of state-level request from a UNESCO country member for the meeting to finally go ahead. However, the Swiss ambassador was eventually persuaded to provide that request, thus scuppering Armenia's attempt to halt the meeting. I think I recall that the Swiss ambassador's involvement had to be off-the-record and secret, because he was not acting on instructions from the Swiss government, but on a personal level.

The process to gain from the European Parliament a specific condemnation of Azerbaijan about the destruction has been going on for years. In 2006, in a previous attempt to raise the matter, the sponsor, the MEP Charles Tannock, almost had to withdraw his resolution because the Armenian government refused to provide him with the evidence he needed to properly present that resolution. He approached me as a last resort (literally the day before he would have been forced to withdraw it), and I was able to provide enough background information to enable him to procede. His resolution was later passed.

This deliberate blocking by the Armenian government continues to this day. Despite repeated approaches, Armenia has again point-blank refused to provide support to those bringing the latest attempt at getting a European Parliament resolution condemning Azerbaijan, as the following diplomatically-worded statement indicates.

http://news.am/eng/news/27509.html

August 11, 2010

This autumn the European Parliament is likely to issue a statement on the destruction of the Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhchivan.

A lot work has been done in this direction and the draft statement has been already submitted to the European Parliament, head of Federation of Armenian Organizations in Belgium Gevorg Minasyan told the reporters in Yerevan. "We have just to get Armenia's support that is a little bit overdue. Nevertheless, I think the process has been launched, and the European Parliament will issue the statement by this autumn", he stressed.

[Joseph]

Re: Nakhichevan

I do not expect you to rise above the level of a worm - so I did not realistically expect you to know anything about the incidents I wrote about. But, because even worms have a sense of self preservation, I would have expected you to assume that these were things you did not know about, and thus not make such a display of your ignorance and your other "qualities".

I took part in the delegation to UNESCO's Paris HQ that I mentioned, so I know all about the extreme difficulties that Armenia's repeated refusal to provide diplomatic support created. Over several years the Armenian ambassador in Paris was asked by those organising the delegation many times to provide assistance to facilitate access to UNESCO, but refused, citing instructions got from Yerevan. When asked, the Armenian embassy also refused to provide a representative to join the delegation for its meeting with the head of UNESCO. Although parliamentarians from Canada and Greece were part of the delegation, UNESCO red tape meant that there had to be some sort of state-level request from a UNESCO country member for the meeting to finally go ahead. However, the Swiss ambassador was eventually persuaded to provide that request, thus scuppering Armenia's attempt to halt the meeting. I think I recall that the Swiss ambassador's involvement had to be off-the-record and secret, because he was not acting on instructions from the Swiss government, but on a personal level.

The process to gain from the European Parliament a specific condemnation of Azerbaijan about the destruction has been going on for years. In 2006, in a previous attempt to raise the matter, the sponsor, the MEP Charles Tannock, almost had to withdraw his resolution because the Armenian government refused to provide him with the evidence he needed to properly present that resolution. He approached me as a last resort (literally the day before he would have been forced to withdraw it), and I was able to provide enough background information to enable him to procede. His resolution was later passed.

This deliberate blocking by the Armenian government continues to this day. Despite repeated approaches, Armenia has again point-blank refused to provide support to those bringing the latest attempt at getting a European Parliament resolution condemning Azerbaijan, as the following diplomatically-worded statement indicates.

http://news.am/eng/news/27509.html

August 11, 2010

This autumn the European Parliament is likely to issue a statement on the destruction of the Armenian cultural monuments in Nakhchivan.

A lot work has been done in this direction and the draft statement has been already submitted to the European Parliament, head of Federation of Armenian Organizations in Belgium Gevorg Minasyan told the reporters in Yerevan. "We have just to get Armenia's support that is a little bit overdue. Nevertheless, I think the process has been launched, and the European Parliament will issue the statement by this autumn", he stressed.

Thanks Bell. This does not surprise me whatsoever. I have met the first two ambassadors from Armenia to the US and they were total zeros. Most of them are inept rejects/midlevel USSR functionaries. They are more symbolic if anything. In the case of the US, the rely far too much on the diaspora to do what the should be doing; we have to hold their hand on just about everything. This is probably true in other places as well. I do have to say that Amb. Tatoul Markarian is a nice change.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Nakhichevan

Thanks Bell. This does not surprise me whatsoever. I have met the first two ambassadors from Armenia to the US and they were total zeros. Most of them are inept rejects/midlevel USSR functionaries. They are more symbolic if anything. In the case of the US, the rely far too much on the diaspora to do what the should be doing; we have to hold their hand on just about everything. This is probably true in other places as well. I do have to say that Amb. Tatoul Markarian is a nice change.

With that Paris ambassador, I think it was that he said (or claimed) that he couldn't do anything without getting instructions from Yerevan, and this went on for over a year. I assume he conveyed to Yerevan what the proposed delegation had said was needed. Which would suggest that Yerevan was deliberately obstructing the attempt to meet UNESCOs head - and since the lack of help is continuing that does seem to be the best explanation. Though maybe the ineptitude of the ambassador played a part. You would think that these appointments would be seen as of vital importance for Armenia. But the ambassador in Britain seems to change every year or so, with no discussion and for no apparent reason.