Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

You are right here. The society must change; but I believe that the government too has to change in this matter. How? By punishing anyone and everyone who resolves to corruption. Including their kins.

That ain't gonna happen ... that's the problem ! If that happened, everything would change. See, the spiderweb has to be broken down. Everyone has to be connected not to each other but to proper behavior.

To Saco; I saw in a few of your posts that you put down nationalists. I am fullheartedly a nationalistic Armenian myself. As a matter of fact to be a darn good Armenian Saco one must be a darn good and whole hearted nationalist.

A true Armenian ... isn't a nationalist. He/She is beyond nationalism. Why? Because nationalism is very dangerous and I've seen what it can do to people if they aren't careful. Love for your country doesn't come via nationalism. Many confuse the two. Many don't understand that. Nationalism, when your not careful, leads to fanaticism and extremism and even racism at one point. Neither are good. You don't have to become a perfect nationalist to be a good Armenian. It doesn't work that way Anoush jan. I can't agree with you here. I'm not putting down good nationalists ... I'm putting down the fanatics and extremists. Even our great leaders never liked them. There are entire books based on this. I don't want to dwell too deep into this topic. I hope you got my point though, don't mean any disrespect.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I think to believe that ARF's leaving the coalition was partly because Serzh was not revealing to them what it was in the "road map" and he was collaborating with our number one enemy, the turks and it was very important for the parties in the coalition to collaborate with each other against the enemy and to give each other brainstorms; especially in dealing with such an enemy who wants to annihilate us time and again (be it culturally or figuritevely), but they do to get Armenia and Artsax out of world's map. At this time they all had to collaborate with each other and see what and how they could work out against the enemy. I also believe that Serzh was acting in a very fishy manner during his collaborations with the turks and that didn't give hope and aspirations of goodwill towards Armenia and to the ARF's party members who were watching Serzh and our government officials carefully.

About the Medzamort Nuclear Power plant, read the article again Karothe, it says that they are letting turkey to come in and be partners with them. It's like saying to the enemy "here is our nuclear powers and see what our secret weapons are all about", it is quite plainly giving our first enemy the formula of our secret weapons. I couldn't believe it when I read that article. How could they'd be dum enough to do that? Or were they paid for it? I don't know.

I'd like to think of Serzh as I did in the past that he is wholeheartedly for our country's behalf; but as of late unfortunately he showed negativity. I hope he'll work things out to prove to his countrymen otherwise.

I think the only reason was because of the road map and all the secretnes around it and not that there are talks for opening the border. Because ARF is not against opening of the border, but they are against preconditions like Serjik is. And can you tell me were the article is because I can't find it.

Yes it's always going to be the poor and the rich in any given country; but in a small and newly rising country of ours; our government should and could try to welcome Armenians from the Diaspora or other rich institutions to come and invest in the country and not let some idiots; be it from the government or from the people to rob the well meaning Diasporans to be robbed royally. That's one of the best ways they could help our small country to get onto her feet and make the very rich and the very poor to meet. In other words; to strive and work to have a middle class people be formed rather than the very wealthy and the very poor majority that it exists now in our country.

You asked me an honest question (whether I would help my relatives and/or friends when I become the president), and I will give you an honest answer; the answer is NO I wouldn't. If I were to be president of our country I would first live very humbly myself to show the devotion towards my countrymen and I would certainly not spoil and help my relatives and friends to be spoiled and corrupted. Why should I do that when I would be living humbly for the sake of the people? I would put a law in the country that anyone (that includes any relative or any friend of mine) who acts in a corruptive fashion will be taken to court and will be punished in the court of law "the country's law". And I will see to it that corruption vanishes from the country.

You see Karothe, it's true that there are a great deal of corruptions in the USA for instance and other well established and rich countries; but in a small and newly established country as Armenia, corruption should be dramatically minimized and vanished. Otherwise we cannot move forward, and if we do move forward it shall be a very very slow road and many of our people would have to resolve to go outside the country to earn enough money to support their families.

And we need time for that we are not even 20 years independent and are still at war. We need time to get investors in, we need people who were from Armenia return there. The government is helping with the creation of the ministry of Diaspora. And Anoush I think you are one of the very few who wouldn't do something like that. You should be there and leading our country

You are right here. The society must change; but I believe that the government too has to change in this matter. How? By punishing anyone and everyone who resolves to corruption. Including their kins.

The government is a representation of the people it has always been and it will always be like that. Look at every country I don't care which one it is. If society changes the gov will change too.

Yes in the USA, in England and Europe the governments live lavishly; but look at the US's government? Because of mega corruption, eventually they not only brought down economically the whole country but the whole world with them. And thanks to them and their corruption, we are in a huge recession now and people cannot find jobs to live.

And what happed to our Nakharars, yes they used to live a very lavish lifestyle but the people also lived well by minding the crops I believe. However the fact that some of our Nakharars acted in a selfish manner and look what happened to our kingdom and our people later? We certainly don't want the very bad habits of the past Nakharars to continue, do we now?

And I say yes of course to strive and for our government to start creating a strong middle class and that comes after three important factors: 1) the government must take a very strong stand against corruption by punishing one and all who act it; and 2) by welcoming and encouraging everyone who try to invest in the country and see to it that no one, I mean no one steals their money or fools around with them or their endeavors; and 3) by working very hard to create jobs for everyone.

How can we blame our government for something that's "normal", and those points you make I agree with them but I believe we need time for that too happen.

[hrai]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

A true Armenian ... isn't a nationalist.

WRONG in so many ways.

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

A true Armenian ... isn't a nationalist. He/She is beyond nationalism. Why? Because nationalism is very dangerous and I've seen what it can do to people if they aren't careful. Love for your country doesn't come via nationalism. Many confuse the two. Many don't understand that. Nationalism, when your not careful, leads to fanaticism and extremism and even racism at one point. Neither are good. You don't have to become a perfect nationalist to be a good Armenian.......

That is right Saco jan, it must be spiritual and cannot strictly be on a single path of some extreme ideological and political doctrine which leads you through a path of tunnel vision.

“I am not a Nationalists, I only recognize one Nation……..the Nation of oppressed.”

General Andranik

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

What you keep avoiding is the fact that this corruption STARTED from the gov. not the people.

No it didn't everything comes before the Armenian governments it goes back to the 50's and even before that I believe. So how can you blame the government for something like that.

They can start their business but I told you under what conditions which isn't very good. In your opinion, things might not be true. In real life though, things are much different....much, much different.

There are tough condition, should that stop them? No! If one wants to open a business in Armenia they will they wont care that they must jump through a couple of few hoops to reach their goal.

Oh there is money coming in. It's been coming in for a longggg time and if your gov. used it properly, we wouldn't be in this state. Why do you ignore this fact?

Those charity pennies that we are getting, is that you are talking about? That's nothing a couple of million at most maybe enough to build one apartment block. And wasn't there a high way being build between Hayastan and Artsakh? Where did the money come from? Those were the charity pennies. Nothing big has entered the country. I'm talking about at least 10 bill. so we can have money for reforms in the country.

But they aren't the MAIN factors. You are making wrong comparisons again, Karo.

According to you that is.

What enemy?

And regarding the workers. THEY aren't the ones that make the decisions. What do you think they do, dig up roads whenever they like? This is another primitive view. Think about what your saying. They're managers are the ones that make the decisions and they aren't freelancers. They are all connected to the gov. That's the problem. It's like a damn spiderweb. Think about what I'm saying. It's very simple.

Forgotten the evil that lives to the west and east of us.
And it's not the top who is deciding that, it's the man in the middle who is doing that. And they can do that because there is a lack of control it's not like they want to waste money, the government that is.

Just like all the other money, right? In this front, perhaps they won't get away with it, but they have eaten MILLIONS of dollars that should've been given to this nation. You'd be a fool to doubt this. And don't say this happens everywhere. It's irregular here. Everyone up there thinks about only his/her self. It's really shameful and the president can't change this. To change this, you have to bring down the entire gov. You have to cut the tree from it's roots.

This is a loan not some charity thing that we are getting. So I'm 100% sure that this will be put to good use.

Now your starting to understand what I'm saying. Chgrvats orenkner kan Karo, durants vura achkerut mi paki. Nuranken teladrum es yerkri apagan. They have to change...

uhmmm............ you are wrong the cop acts on his own and puts all of the money in his own pocket. The government doesn't control everything so stop freaking out like that.

That continues till today but things have changed considerably because the gov. pulled it's xxxx together. So see, they have the power to stop all this but they weren't for a long time. Puti tarapeink vor nor pokhein es orenkneru, che?

Yes because there are people ready to pay for good grades and people accept is as normal. Not because the government supports it.

Why are you blaming the people AGAIN? Don't you have anyone else to pick on? And I don't expect Heaven but I expected something much better then this. After the war LOT'S of money came in and the gov. used it in the wrong way. I don't know how you can disagree with this.

I'm not blaming the people but aren't there people in the government and I think everything in my sentence is correct. What is lot's of money to you please tell me?

We have yet to see what has "changed". Every president that came in changed a few things and then began to act retarded after a little while. I support Serj to some extent but I don't trust him like you do. I know things will change. I just hope its a good change and that by the time things come along, half our people won't be out of here. If you want to know, yes, I think a revolution has to begin. This gov. can't change. It will change something but it won't change. If we don't stop this system NOW then forget about ever changing it later. It's been only 15 years. We can still change everything. But later, it will be too late. That's my worry and that's why I want our people to stand up. Serj is acting carefully because he knows our people have had enough and will cut his head off if he makes a mistake. This border issue will decide who he really is. I'm not making any judgement calls just yet...

Just don't know what to say when talking with a person that see things like that and believes that when there is someone new too power things are going to be better. They wont trust me, history has proovn that.

I agree, completely, but the gov. has to give us that opportunity! It's not as easy as you think to change everything. Look at the bigger picture. Look at the spiderweb ... at how everything is connected to each other. No matter what you want to change, you still have to start from the gov. It's like this no matter how you look at it.

And how is the government stopping you, they aren't they are even helping but the people(yes the people again) don't want to change the way of living they have. They want money and everything to stay like it is.

But they're bigger, have a larger population, and are just that ... major countries. We aren't a major country. Hell, people don't even properly know we exist. But STILL, we get lots and lots of money (somehow, I'm amazed sometimes) and this gov. knows our people aren't very smart and so manipulates them in any way it likes ... making whatever decision it likes whenever it likes. Everything starts from the top, Karo. That's why we need to change that and that's exactly what the gov. doesn't want us to do. They're trying to keep the status que.

We act like a little country people treat us like a little country we are the most powerful country in the southern Caucasus. We can invade two of our neighbors and take a large part of "their" land. Yeah lots of money(I call it penny's compared to other countries). Yeah that's why there is electricity and running water and more job opportunities. Yes they don't want to change right.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

They are fighting in their own way Mr. I don't give a sh!t. In ten years time, you will start to see how many people still remember who we are, our history, our traditions, our music, our instruments (which are on the brink of being lost), etc. and they will have to owe it to only these people. Our New Generation knows so little about our past and these people are making sure that in a few years, there will still be some physical history to see and not just talk about in history books! You have no idea what these people have done. They have spent their entire lives protecting who we are .. what makes our country what it is. Everyone plays a role. Don't make the fighters more important then THESE fighters who CONTINUE to fight. It's because of these people that the fighters fight because they protect this nation's personality. And when it comes down to "petakan shenk" there's more to that issue then you think. There were SO MANY HOMES that were created in the last decade and the gov. just decided to break them down. Is this right? Your just talking, Karo. Start listening more.

How are they fighting, how many will stand up and defend the country when the time is there not many I believe. They are no fighters. the soldiers and the generals protected who we were and they died for it I can't even believe you dare to compare them with each other.
The fighters fight for Hayastan, they are fighting for mayr Hayastan. They are fighting for the people their family the soldier doesn't care about the things that you are talking about. And haven't they gotten money for their apartment? They did than nothing illegal has happened. Those kind of things happen here too so it's not only our evil government.

Have you seen the new generation here in Armenia? So many of our people, if not most, don't give a hoot what happens to our nation. What children are you talking about? These children are making this nation WORSE believe it or not in so many ways. It's the handful of serious people that are protecting our past and who we are so that after a few years, there will be something to come back to. We've lost so much already. And your here dissing them.

People have been complaining about the generation that's coming behind them since they could write and even before that and the world is still advancing strange isn't it.

These aren't ARTISTS Karo. What's your problem, man? You think I'm talking about simple musicians? Your carelessness has reached it's limit I feel. Can you hear what your saying? How can you disrespect these people so badly? You don't even know them. It's YOU that's stuck up.



They aren't ARTISTS. You look at them as ordinary people and you are again offending them. There are hundreds of businessmen. There are only a few like the people I'm talking about and they actually make a real difference. They aren't who you think they are, Karo.

Too me they are ordinary people who don't deserve a special treatment too me they are normal people

Let's hope not. And the people can't stick to a gov. and keep it evolving when it makes they're lives harder and harder every day. You make it sound like all our people are dumbasses and need to start getting in line. In reality, it's the other way around. Stop blaming the people, Karo.

No you are right the people need to take up arms and fight against the government look how much it has helped our neighbors yes they should give up a government that has made that the prosperity rise every year. yeah you are so right

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

A true Armenian ... isn't a nationalist. He/She is beyond nationalism. Why? Because nationalism is very dangerous and I've seen what it can do to people if they aren't careful. Love for your country doesn't come via nationalism. Many confuse the two. Many don't understand that. Nationalism, when your not careful, leads to fanaticism and extremism and even racism at one point. Neither are good. You don't have to become a perfect nationalist to be a good Armenian. It doesn't work that way Anoush jan. I can't agree with you here. I'm not putting down good nationalists ... I'm putting down the fanatics and extremists. Even our great leaders never liked them. There are entire books based on this. I don't want to dwell too deep into this topic. I hope you got my point though, don't mean any disrespect.

Why is it dangerous Saco? Am I a dangerous species? Because if I am to your eyes or if I am not than I am a true blue nationalist! It's true, I am, I have been all my life and I am still one and I will die one! And because of it I am so loving towards our people... our country which we call our RofA.... and I wish when the time comes to fight until my last breath to make Armenia from sea to sea!!! There, I am a true blue nationalist and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being one, especially when we have such barbaric two nations amidst us and Georgia isn't much better either. Neither the USA and the Zionist Jews who want to crush us at any given time (be it our sacred cause or our little landlocked country and our vital rightful rights as a nation and as people)!

So yes yes yes.... I am a nationalist and I would cry to the world if I have to that I am proud to be one as I believe in our lovely people who are called ARMENIANS and our loving country ARMENIA. I therefore will support her until my last breath!!!!!! And if I wasn't a nationalistic Armenian I wouldn't feel or talk to you people the way I do now!

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

“I am not a Nationalist, I only recognize one Nation……..the Nation of oppressed.”

General Andranik

And who is that Nation Eddo? None other but Armenia!

General Andranik uttered that statement to prove it to the world that he loves everyone alive; however since his own people and his own country has been crushed and annihilated and oppressed than that is fitting for him to fight to bring them out of oppresseion and annihilation. But believe me we are talking symentics here, if he didn't believe for his people and forming a just country that belonged to his people from millenia; he wouldn't have been leading his Armenian troops to fight a war against the enemy lines. Any enemy who will rise and kill or oppress his people was a just cause for him to fight against it for the sake of his own people, and he did it heroically for many years. If you ask me, General Andrankik was a nationalist regardless for what he uttered here.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I think the only reason was because of the road map and all the secrecy around it and not that there are talks for opening the border. Because ARF is not against opening of the border, but they are against preconditions like Serjik is. And can you tell me were the article is because I can't find it.

Yes that is true, the ARF was against mostly for Serzh accepting the preconditions drawn by turkey, if he accepted it for instance.

Karothe, here is the Thread and the articles about our Medzamort Nuclear Power Plant put out by one of our members merhayrenik:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=16714

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNkJCtwmu9w&

[anoush]And we need time for that we are not even 20 years independent and are still at war. We need time to get investors in, we need people who were from Armenia return there. The government is helping with the creation of the ministry of Diaspora. And Anoush I think you are one of the very few who wouldn't do something like that. You should be there and leading our country

If they gave me the chance I would love to go and help our country to help them to govern not just with intelligence, but by seeing the big picture. For every action and path that a governing body takes must think twice, thrice as to whom they are doing and what it is leading to? The bottom line is with all due respect one must think for the people, for the country's well being and not our own well being. Yes if I was a governing body in there believe me Karothe I wouldn't think of ways to advance our Republic. How would I be able to make the corruption disappear almost in it's entirety, how I would be able to create various jobs for everyone, how can I make Armenia economically thrive and make the investors come and invest freely without being frightened to being mugged or taken advantage of. I would put all the people that involve themselves with corruption in the prisons to teach everyone that it would happen to them if they continue any illegal doings and actions on their part.

How would I not live but humbly as the governing body of Armenia, since if a war broke down I will go and fight for her and dedicate my life to her?

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I laughed about you wanting to know what my family say on phone because we'd need whole forum just for that! Loosen up a bit.

There you go again, throwing the teddy out of the crib. Three big statements in one. 1) How was what you've said been proven and by who?
2) You've gone defensive saying that I might not trust you. and now offensive:
3) Saying you'll stop the talk.
Saco, this is crazy way to discuss anything. If we ever met in a cafe and had discussions like this I think I'd pull my hair and eyes out!

Saco jan, hrai is right in pointing this out to you. I haven’t read all your long posts but from what I have this is how I feel.
We all want the same thing and you are making many valid points (Thanks Saco for your valuable perspective from the inside), but you are not being rational in your approach……….emotional control and patience is a discipline that must be learned when trying to come up with a solution with your fellow Armenians.

This is a very healthy discussion but a very emotional one as well and you cannot dismisses completely others point of view. This is a very dynamic situation and even though our Government in Armenia is ultimately responsible for the well being of people and uphold its Democratic laws but after all, they are between a rock and a very hard place Geo-politically dealing with multi-head Serpents………..it is not as easy as to just say they want to line their pockets and nothing else.

You know little brother, this just reminded me of my Cousins wife’s brother who after loosing his 17 year old son in a tragic car accident decided to dedicate his whole life completely to Armenia………..he bought land and built from scratch a children school in Yerevan 10 years ago and that school is doing very well now. The other day we were talking and after some Kabob and Whiskey with tears in his eyes he said. “ Ha, so what, let them steal (corruption), Armenians must do what they can anyway they can……” Not that I fully agree but something to consider while we grow as a independent country.