“Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

[Siggie]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

So now it's the definition of homosexuality that's the problem? Modern academica, in fact, modern society from its post-modern roots has been very vocal on how anything can mean anything. Hence meaning in modernity loses its purpose as it becomes a case of 'anything goes'. What this reminds me of is that adage homosexuals like to throw out, namely how everyone is gay but they just 'dont know it'.

I'm not changing what I'm saying at all. I'm just explaining why there might be various measures taken. Do you think homosexuality is best defined as attraction to the opposite sex? Anyone that has ever felt the slightest bit of attraction to someone of the same sex is then homosexual?

It's a methodological issue because there's not agreement on how to define it. Is it a problem? Yes, but it doesn't negate the research. Despite having operationalized homosexuality in a variety of ways, the findings are consistent.

I have never heard this. So what anyway? There are lots of sayings, folk beliefs, etc -- doesn't make them true or supported by science.

Be that as it may, in The History of Sexuality Foucault, himself a homosexual, identified homosexuality as a modern invention, i.e. the idea of homosexuality as a group in itself that is somehow distinct and conscious of itself. Prior to that there was never a question of whether homosexuality is a function of genetics or choice, etc. It was simply not seen as being a fundamental part of the person, but instead as an action, a tendency, a behavior, something the person engaged in. Only in modernity has it become part of identity politics. Even among the Greeks, where modern supporters of homosexual rights like to point, society was not what they make it out to be. In Greece men were fully allowed to engage in relationships with other men, provided that they eventually married. The Greeks understood a distinction between something one did as in a behavior, and an institution of civilization as in marriage. In Foucault's words:

"Homosexuality appears as one of the forms of sexuality when it was transposed from the practice of sodomy onto a kind of interior androgyny, a hermaphroditism of the soul. The sodomite had been a temporary aberration; the homosexual was now a species."

So the same post-modernist who were not hesitant to have created the politics of the left's identity politics to class homosexuality as a distinct identity, i.e. an alternative lifestyle, are also many of the vaunted experts who say how anyone can be a homosexual depending on who you ask, and the very word itself is as elastic as a rubber band.

The thoughts of an individual mean nothing... You know that a case study provides very limited information. The individual could be atypical, so this isn't worth much. This is philosophy... not science. Talk is cheap -- Anyone can generate a theory, but if it's not supported with evidence what good is it?

[Anonymouse]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

Yeah, it's a methodological issue because there's not agreement on how to define it. Is it a problem? Yes, but it doesn't negate the research.

I have never heard this. So what anyway? There are lots of sayings, folk beliefs, etc -- doesn't make them true or supported by science.



The thoughts of an individual mean nothing... You know that a case study provides very limited information. The individual could be atypical, so this isn't worth much. This is philosophy... not science. Talk is cheap -- Anyone can generate a theory, but if it's not supported with evidence what good is it?

Evidence? We can have conflicted data for two different things and that's science? You're right, anyone can generate a theory and science is the best example of that. Everything is, literally, a theory, and as such a conjecture. Science is nothing more than the religion of modernity and scientists the new priesthood. Science is first and foremost a social institution, and scientists first and foremost before becoming scientists are social beings. Therefore, science is very much dependent on the influences and ideologies that pervade and the politics that control. There is no reason to believe that scientists do not exhibit individual bias in their assessments or how they interpret the evidences.

[Anonymouse]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

It is possible that transian wants/needs to protect anonymity. If I were transian, I'd do that, given the grief from family and all. Transian, I'd say, find your support people (or more than you already have). Those people are your core.

I'm curious. What do you think about the marriage in the post? Marriage in general?

I don't recall your name being transian. You make it sound as if we live in a Muslim fundamentalist society. The way you criticize this society makes it seem as somehow the most intolerant place on earth, yet you haven't seen intolerance. What we have here is heaven compared to the places that exist so just take that into consideration. And you sound like transian's cheerleader. Relax, will ya? You seem to be getting more exicted about this topic than the actual person involved.

As for my views on privatizing marriage, it has been discussed. You can use the search function to find it.

[Siggie]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

Evidence? We can have conflicted data for two different things and that's science? You're right, anyone can generate a theory and science is the best example of that. Everything is, literally, a theory, and as such a conjecture. Science is nothing more than the religion of modernity and scientists the new priesthood. Science is first and foremost a social institution, and scientists first and foremost before becoming scientists are social beings. Therefore, science is very much dependent on the influences and ideologies that pervade and the politics that control. There is no reason to believe that scientists do not exhibit individual bias in their assessments or how they interpret the evidences.

I wasn't quite done with my previous post-- was editing when you replied, so I've added a little.

The lay definiton of theory (a guess or conjecture) is not the same as that of science. In science a theory is only valid if its predictions are supported after being examined using the scientific method.

There's not conflicting evidence. Just because a single study found a small difference (that could easily have occured to chance) on ONE of its measures doesn't negate dozens of other studies whose findings are in agreement.

[Anahita]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

I don't recall your name being transian. You make it sound as if we live in a Muslim fundamentalist society. The way you criticize this society makes it seem as somehow the most intolerant place on earth, yet you haven't seen intolerance. What we have here is heaven compared to the places that exist so just take that into consideration. And you sound like transian's cheerleader. Relax, will ya? You seem to be getting more exicted about this topic than the actual person involved.

As for my views on privatizing marriage, it has been discussed. You can use the search function to find it.

Lots of the above makes no sense.

I was only saying that if there was a discrepancy in details of what transian wrote, it might be because of that sort of thing (I feel for people, in general, in case you haven't noticed--compassion.) I didn't ask about your views about gay marriage. Since you gave yours, I'll give mine: I am FOR gay marriage--with no doubt.

[Sip]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

Oh oh ... I was watching some lesbian porn the other day that physically aroused me. I hope I'm not gay.

[Siggie]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

Oh oh ... I was watching some lesbian porn the other day that physically aroused me. I hope I'm not gay.

Oooh Sip... I'm sorry - - It seems you are a gay woman.

Do you have an opinion here are you just making jokes?

[Sip]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

My opinion is as I've stated earlier, that no matter how much gay activities go on around me, I find it VERY unlikely that I would want to join in and participate in those sausage fests. Lesbian activities is a different issue

But if you want my real opinion, I think gay people should be able to adopt the leftover kids that no one else wants. I'm sure there are PLENTY of kids for them to adopt. I rather have them end up being gay (if there's even a possiblity or link) than crack wh0res or gang banger thugs on the streets. What's the worst that can happen? I guess will have an overpopulation of interior designers and figure skaters in the future. Big deal.

Oooops I think I crossed the line between seriousness and jokes again. I think I'll shut up now.

But to make a final on topic statement .. I might have said this on another board so I'm confused now (same topic going on in parallel): If Armenian gays want to have their lifestyle I have no problem with it. However, I don't think they should expect the church to conform to their lifestyle choices. That would defeat the purpose of having a church in the first place (as it's intended to be). Being Armenian and belonging to the Armenian church are two separate issues.

[transian]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

I am confused as to your order of brothers. You said you are the oldest yet stated an older brother, therefore, how old does that make you and your youngest brother that is married? So are your parents divorced? I am assuming this involved alot of arguments and bad times in the house. And if you live here would I be right in assuming you support same sex marriage?

First thanks for the support and kind words from some of you. Let me see if I can straighten some of my comments and thoughts. Yes,I am the older brother. Before I edited the post,I did refer him as my middle brother then made a typo,although I do however consider myself as a woman with a tiny birth defect between my legs,anyway. My parents are happily married not divorced,so my mother and brother come and visit me over at my apartment. There was alot of tension,arguments and bad times in the house before I left. My father is a typical strong willed,stubborn Armenian male who has no compromise concerning this matter. To answer another question,A male to female transexual is someone who feels like they are a female trapped in a man's body...it's the feeling that what's between your brains doesn't match what's between your legs. A transvestite is just a male who just dresses up in women's clothing for various reasons...sexual kicks mostly or whatever. I'm not the type of person who goes around making a specticle of my myself in gay pride parades and all am not pushing the gay marriage issue on anybody else,either. I hope some of this makes sense,it was just the way I was born,that's all.

[Anonymouse]

Re: “Love and Loyalty”: Marriage in secret, in an environment of fear

First thanks for the support and kind words from some of you. Let me see if I can straighten some of my comments and thoughts. Yes,I am the older brother. Before I edited the post,I did refer him as my middle brother then made a typo,although I do however consider myself as a woman with a tiny birth defect between my legs,anyway. My parents are happily married not divorced,so my mother and brother come and visit me over at my apartment. There was alot of tension,arguments and bad times in the house before I left. My father is a typical strong willed,stubborn Armenian male who has no compromise concerning this matter. To answer another question,A male to female transexual is someone who feels like they are a female trapped in a man's body...it's the feeling that what's between your brains doesn't match what's between your legs. A transvestite is just a male who just dresses up in women's clothing for various reasons...sexual kicks mostly or whatever. I'm not the type of person who goes around making a specticle of my myself in gay pride parades and all am not pushing the gay marriage issue on anybody else,either. I hope some of this makes sense,it was just the way I was born,that's all.

Well thank you for participating in the AC Forum's bimonthly gay thread (we seem to average one every 2 months).

However, I don't believe you! I think you are one big fat lie! A liar liar pants on fire and hurry up and save the weiner.