Turkey 2 give back land?

[Armanen]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

Virgil jan, you are wasting your time debating with this orc, best thing you can say to him is "eat s**t and die!"

[lan ?]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

For the most part, most of "them" were servents, not "equal oppurtunity workers".?

this sentence shows your knowledge on this subject, they weree deputy, manager ...in the government but you say they were servants, so could you tell me which position they should have been for not having called as a servant please... you accepted their positions in the government but at the same time you said they are servant. I can not say anything about this ok you are right...

As fars the "economic losses" is concerned, that is fine, all those economic ventures were not going to be contracted to Armenia anyways, do you honestly think that your government would help Armenia? When in fact it was the first government to close the borders with Armenia?

you should know that also turkey is one of the first countries who recognized the republic of armenia when it declared its independence,but then as we know turkey closed its borders. why ? as I said your hostile behaviours such as claiming "western armenia" including a few cities of turkey, we are talking about a country which has its borders and another country which doesn't respect its neigbour's borders, could you tell me which country can accepted this. please we know the reason of closing the borders and unfortunately this situation will continue because of armenians this policy...

[lan ?]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

For the most part, most of "them" were servents, not "equal oppurtunity workers".?

this sentence shows your knowledge on this subject, they were deputy, manager ...in the government but you say they were servants, so could you tell me which position they should have been for not having called as a servant please... you accepted their positions in the government but at the same time you said they were servant. I can not say anything about this ok you are right...

As fars the "economic losses" is concerned, that is fine, all those economic ventures were not going to be contracted to Armenia anyways, do you honestly think that your government would help Armenia? When in fact it was the first government to close the borders with Armenia?

you should know that also turkey is one of the first countries who recognized the republic of armenia when it declared its independence,but then as we know turkey closed its borders. why ? as I said your hostile behaviours such as claiming "western armenia" including a few cities of turkey, we are talking about a country which has its borders and another country which doesn't respect its neigbour's borders, could you tell me which country can accepted this. please we know the reason of closing the borders and unfortunately this situation will continue because of armenians' hostile policy...

[lan ?]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

Virgil jan, you are wasting your time debating with this orc, best thing you can say to him is "eat s**t and die!"

thank you for this insulting

[Armanen]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

thank you for this insulting

You're welcome, it's the least I can do

[TomServo]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

you should know that also turkey is one of the first countries who recognized the republic of armenia when it declared its independence

Turkey's benevolence knows no bounds. Thank you for recognizing Armenia.

How about recognizing a few other things, however inconvenient and painful it may be?

,but then as we know turkey closed its borders. why ? as I said your hostile behaviours such as claiming "western armenia" including a few cities of turkey, we are talking about a country which has its borders and another country which doesn't respect its neigbour's borders, could you tell me which country can accepted this. please we know the reason of closing the borders and unfortunately this situation will continue because of armenians' hostile policy...

You know, over the years there have been quite a few Turks who have [unfortunately] happened upon this forum. Each has given a different reason for the closure of the border. At least get your story straight.

Funny that you mention "hostile policies" while Turkey is throwing another one of its temper tantrums in Iraq. The incursion has been condemned by nearly every state, but if most people in Turkey are best represented by our forum numbskull Selpak, then it's not surprising that the condemnations have gone in one ear and out the other.

[Virgil]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

this sentence shows your knowledge on this subject, they weree deputy, manager ...in the government but you say they were servants, so could you tell me which position they should have been for not having called as a servant please... you accepted their positions in the government but at the same time you said they are servant. I can not say anything about this ok you are right...

I told you from the start that I am not going tor resort to schalorly debate, there has been enough of those thus far. I just want to expose your logic, you are claiming two things:

First, because a miniscule (And it was a miniscule compared to the Armenian population) were "given" positions, somehow, this is suppose to overshadow the violent sentence handed over to the Armenian population for a "crime", the majority were not involved, but yet, the minority that did commit the "crime" were justified in perpretrating.

Again, let us move forward a 100 years, why is Turkey then supporting Kosovo Albanians? Are you then implying that these parties do not have a justification and that Turkey is just supporting a people that betrayed the Seribish population? Yes, this is exactly what you are implying, regardless of the personal bias, there exists a justification as to why a the majority population, the minority, or the majority in a region of empire, state, or nation seeks independence. Usually, it is because the centralized government has failed in its role to evenly divide resources. Essentially, you want to pick and choose what is justified and what is not, based on your interests. Invading and occupying Cyprus is "justified", a mass invasion by the 4th largest military power in the world in your warped mind, is somehow "justified". However, if I were to explain to the root cause of the Armenian and Azeri conflict, about how Azerbaijan was planning to commit another genocide and how a band of a couple thousand villagers, all able bodied men, women, and children, defended a few thousand square miles of land versus a well funded and well trained army backed by Turkey, UK, Israel, and the US, somehow, I think in this scenario you would still spin the story to make the Turkey and Turks look "innocent" and Armenians, "traitors", essentially, anything that is not in your interest always lacks any justification.

Second, you are claiming that the Turkish leadership throughout the existence of the Ottoman Empire "offered positions" to their "Armenian subjects" because they wanted them to be part of the "governing process", but the reality is this, they only offered them these postions because they lacked the sophistication and knowledge to fill the gaps in their empire. I just want you to understand that the picture you are painting is very much a lie and is twist on the truth. Am I implying then that Armenians did not hold positions within government? NO, rather, they did hold positions, but it was not "position of powers", it was only positions that the Turkish population could not fill themselves, and please, don't argue with me on this one, in most empires, the burden of the mechanism of technology, culture, and trade, rests on the shoulders on the minorities, not the majority.

Essentially, you are trying to spin the story in such a way where it makes the Ottoman Empire look like a "Club Med", when in fact, it was a brutal empire that was built upon the backbone of its minorities and it went into the decline because of the disproportional allocation of resources towards military conquest versus state building. Yes, in the later half of the 15th century, the Ottoman Empire was indeed in a state of primacy in Europe, however, by the late 18th century, European states had already surpassed the Ottoman Empire in both culture and technology. The European powers could have dismantled the Ottoman Empire earlier then the first world war, however, they opted to keep the Ottoman Empire going, long enough to use it against each other (they were to stupid and arrogant to realize the danger in this).

you should know that also turkey is one of the first countries who recognized the republic of armenia when it declared its independence,but then as we know turkey closed its borders. why ? as I said your hostile behaviours such as claiming "western armenia" including a few cities of turkey, we are talking about a country which has its borders and another country which doesn't respect its neigbour's borders, could you tell me which country can accepted this. please we know the reason of closing the borders and unfortunately this situation will continue because of armenians this policy...

Yeah, so what? Do you think it "recognized" Armenia because of "good will"? And, who cares, really, it may have been the first to recognize Armenia, but iwas also the first and only state to close its borders when war broke out with Azerbaijan. It was also the first to send arms shipments to Azerbaijan, and Turkey and Israel, were also the first states to be used as a proxy to ship American weapons to Azerbaijan, so what is your point? I don't see the point in claiming to "have been the first", when in fact, there was no political incentive to "not recognize Armenia", was Turkey going to "not recognize Armenia" when the rest of the world was "going to recognize Armenia"? I believe the Turkish think tank that suggested the idea of "being the first state to recognize Armenia" made his argument based on the premise that, "by being first", Turkey can always use this miniscule justication to stick in the face of Armenians that "they hold no grudge", however, we are adults and well read, we all know that this is lie. The reality is that, the rest of the world no including Turkey was going to recognize Armenia, Turkey just used the oppurtunity to prop itself up on the world stage.

Ok, you claim that "western Armenia" is part of Turkey, right? Fair enough, I will "respect" the "international law", if and only if, your government recognizes Artsahk, not only as a independent state, but also as a integral part of Armenia proper. However, if you and your government had class and your people respected fundimental human rights (even in war, only cowards commit genocide and kill innocent men, women, and children, this is what seperates a great general from a monster), you would be the first people to apologize to the Christian Turks that you commited genocide on, really, I don't view those individuals as Armenians, I view them as Christian Turks, invisible citizens of the Ottoman Empire that died without knowing the motive behind their murder. Most of them were innocent villagers that had no romantic dreams of independence. The bare minimum your government could do is return to them their property, compensate their loses, and give them the oppurtunity and choice to return to their ancestral land.

[Virgil]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

Virgil jan, you are wasting your time debating with this orc, best thing you can say to him is "eat s**t and die!"

Enkar Armanen, your right, I don't do it for the sake of educating anyone!

The facts are in books, please, don't take my motives on face value. I could resort to a scharlorly debate, but how many more debates should there exist? I laugh at any academic and world leader that resorts to genocide denial, not so much so because I fail to understand "real politik", but come on, it does not take a monkey to connect the dots, a declining empire and various minorities, put them together and you have genocide, this is a fundimental trend in empire, any world leader or academic that argues otherwise should be fired for incompetance.

You have to understand, most Armenians fail to see the Turkish double standard and there does exist a huge double standard in the world, various states are just used a proxy to absolve and mask the hand of the chessplayers. I hope this conversation has opened the eyes of a few members, if you don't persue your rights, no entity in the world will. This scenario should no doubt, leave you with a view that absolutly power can corrupt absolutly, therefore, you must never resort to becoming a pawn on the chessboard, maybe a knight, a rook, or a biship, but never a pawn, pawns are always sacrificed.

[Alexzan]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

The ottoman Empire is restarting.

[jgk3]

Re: Turkey 2 give back land?

what makes you say that?