And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

[SevSpitak]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

I think this book will hold most of the answers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WSl4JW5hQewC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Republic+of+Armenia:+The+first+year,+1918-1919&hl=en&ei=_PrmTJLYOYy1ngfstYjYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

But we must consider that in 1918, the Ottoman Empire occupied large portions of the Caucasus, so our concentration should be in the year of 1919, when the Caucasus was free from Russian and Ottoman occupation (who drew borders according to their expansionist, divide-and-conquer plans), and we (Azerbaijan and Armenia) were left to fend for ourselves. It was during this time, from my current knowledge, that we had stable control over Sadark (at least), and probably even Sharur. In other words, the "volume 2" of this book. But I can't read it until I buy it, unlike the first one.

Interesting points in that book:
Page 235 (Foreign Minister Tigranian's report to the Armenian delegation in Paris)
Page 247 (The Repatriation)

[SevSpitak]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Spitak jan, do you have a link that gives out figures for the Armenian population of Sharur and Sadarak or the figures of Armenian population per administrative division in Nakhichevan?

Not exactly.

According to Wikipedia (which is purportedly based on a Russian census from 1898) the Armenian population consisted of almost 30% of the population of Sharur-Daralagyoz region (Sharur/Sadarak/Vayots Dzor). I haven't managed to get my hands on a source that gives the census for each village specifically. The closest I have been to answer this is maps:

This map shows the regions populated by ethnic groups, and since its date loosely coincides with the census' date, I think it's safe to assume that it's based on it. If we refer to this, we can clearly see that the Sharur/Sadarak regions were inhabited by Armenians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Russia_ethnic.JPG

This map (from 1914) shows the a majority Turkic population, however, the fact that "Armenier" is written all over suggests that Armenians made up a significant population:

http://www.coletta.de/kolonien/Die%20Voelker%20Europas%201914%20xxl.jpg

Of course, we must keep in mind that these maps show the majority population of the regions, we shouldn't assume that Tatars didn't live as a minority in the regions indicated as inhabited by Armenians. We must also consider that ethnic groups were often identified by religion at that time, and Turcophone Kurds were probably also identified as "Tatars." It's also possible that Armenian villages, surrounded by Tatar villages were excluded, and vice versa with Tatar villages surrounded by Armenian. More research has to be done about this. I think this information would probably be available to someone who can read Russian somewhere in this site:

http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_lan_97.php

This article is interesting, especially this part:

In 1918-1920, as a result of two Turkish invasions, part of the Armenians populace (25000 persons) of the former Nakhichevan province (later – a district) was assassinated by the Turkish occupants and bands of Mousafats, and part of them was forced to leave their homeland.
On March 16, 1921 the Soviet Russia and Turkey entered into an agreement in Moscow, which defined that Nakhichevan was passed to the Soviet Azerbaijan “with the status of an autonomous territory”. In the context of the international law the conclusion of the aforementioned agreement was apparently an illegitimate action: two states decided on passing the territory of a third state without the latter’s consent to the fourth state (Details in: Moscow Agreement www.genocide. ru)
In order to give a legally acceptable form to the agreement, in the same year it was renewed in Kars (Details in: Kars Agreement www.genocide.ru) with the participation of the Soviet Transcaucasus republics: “The Turkish government and the Soviet governments of Azerbaijan and Armenia agree that Nakhichevan region constitutes an autonomous region (with its borders as defined in the Annex of this Agreement) under the protection of Azerbaijan”. It should be noted that the wording read not “the composition”, but “under the protection” of the Soviet Azerbaijan. It was beyond any doubt that Nakhichevan was an Armenian territory which was passed to the protection of the Soviet Azerbaijan deriving from the interests of the world revolution.
Otherwise, how could an Azerbaijani territory be passed to the protection of Azerbaijan itself?
The fact that province was one of the authentic Armenian regions is proven by the rich heritage that is preserved in the cultural centers of Nakhichevan. In the medieval ages dozens of cultural centers with Armenian schools existed in Goghtn, Jauk, Yernjak, Agulis and other regions of Nakhichevan province. The masterpieces of the Armenian miniature art and manuscripts are indicative of the high skills of the Nakhichevan scribes and painters. Numerous monuments of the Armenian architecture were erected. Many of them have been preserved and still exist in the gorges and valleys of Agulis, Ordubad, Vananda, Tskhni, Gilan and Bist.
According to the statistics of the census in 1897, 34 ,672 Armenians lived in Nakhichevan (34,4%). In 1926 their number was 11,276 (10,8%), and in 1979, as a result of the Armeniophobic policy of the Azerbaijani authorities, only 3406 (1,4%) of Armenians lived in Nakhichevan. At present not a single Armenian lives in Nakhichevan.

[Federate]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Spitak jan, do you have a link that gives out figures for the Armenian population of Sharur and Sadarak or the figures of Armenian population per administrative division in Nakhichevan?

[lampron]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

North of Nakhichevan was populated by Armenians, and ruled, with no interruption until 1923, by Armenia. I'm not talking about the city of Nakhichevan, nor the entirety of the province (which had its Armenian population removed in the 17th/18th century btw), but the parts that undisputedly belonged to Armenia to the North (Sharur and parts of Sadarak), which were taken away from Armenia in order to connect Turkey to Nakhichevan/Azerbaijan. Keep in mind that the entire province was under the control of Armenia at the time when both Armenia and Azerbaijan were taken over by the USSR. Considering a region like NK, which had a 94% Armenian population, could be ceded to Azerbaijan, why is it that a region, historically part of Armenia, and very recently part of the Armenian Oblast, with 30-40% Armenian population, can't be part of Armenia (i.e.: not even the parts that were exclusively Armenian like the North)?

.

you make a good point. Another point: no-one is talking about the rights of the Armenian refugees
who were forced out of Nakhichevan, while we constantly read about the right of return of the Tatar minority to Karabakh

[SevSpitak]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

70% IS overwhelmingly not Armenian. Maybe you should educate yourself first in maths, percentages, and statistics. And after that, and most difficult of all for you, educate yourself in reality.

You need to relax a bit, and clear this anti-Armenian cloud from your mind for a moment. You clearly didn't read this.

North of Nakhichevan was populated by Armenians, and ruled, with no interruption until 1923, by Armenia. I'm not talking about the city of Nakhichevan, nor the entirety of the province (which had its Armenian population removed in the 17th/18th century btw), but the parts that undisputedly belonged to Armenia to the North (Sharur and parts of Sadarak), which were taken away from Armenia in order to connect Turkey to Nakhichevan/Azerbaijan. Keep in mind that the entire province was under the control of Armenia at the time when both Armenia and Azerbaijan were taken over by the USSR. Considering a region like NK, which had a 94% Armenian population, could be ceded to Azerbaijan, why is it that a region, historically part of Armenia, and very recently part of the Armenian Oblast, with 30-40% Armenian population, can't be part of Armenia (i.e.: not even the parts that were exclusively Armenian like the North)?

Second, the reality is that 30-40% Armenians makes almost half of the population! The fact that they disappeared from Nakhichevan BEFORE the NKR conflict makes it clear as day what type of policies Azerbaijan pursued (which Hellektor talks about). No Azerbaijani/Tatars were ethnically cleansed from Armenia until the NKR conflict, at a time when even if Armenia tried to be the nicest they possibly could to them, they still would have escaped to Azerbaijan.

[Tigranakert]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Discussing with bell-the-cat is useless. He is an anti-Armenian racist. The current Republic of Armenia, Artsakh, Nakhichevan and Eastern Turkey are the homeland of the Armenian nation. This is a fact. The reality is that Nakhichevan, Artsakh, and Eastern Turkey are under occupation under the pretext of these fake international treaties, recognized by the criminal and biased organization called the UN.

If I am not mistaken, in the Armenian constitution we see Western-Armenia as a part of our nation.

[lampron]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Hellektor is a loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed racist - the "thesis" of that individual is worth nothing. Nakhchivan exists because by 1920 the overwhelming majority of its population was not Armenian. No fantasy from Hellektor is going to change that hard fact, or the hard fact of the very real existence of the republic of Azerbaijan.

Yes everyone here agrees that Nakhichevan by 1920 had a non-Armenian majority, but how did that come about? - an important question!

Yes everyone agrees that there is a state called Azerbaijan to the east of Armenia/Karabakh. But even the Tatars recognize that there never was a country called Azerbaijan until 1918. We know that some years later they re-invented themselves as 'Azeris'. All very intriguing stuff! Which is where researchers like Hellektor come in

[bell-the-cat]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

I suggest you read this (don't just look at the map, read the text). If you're going to make such bold Azeri-friendly claims so confidently, I suggest you educate yourself first. The population of Nakhichevan was bout 60-70% Muslim, while the rest was Armenian.

Your compatriot, Hellektor, may be foul mouthed, but that's no reason to ignore his book or his arguments. He almost uses his foul mouth in a satirical way. He makes very good points, and I can defend most of his stance very well.

70% IS overwhelmingly not Armenian. Maybe you should educate yourself first in maths, percentages, and statistics. And after that, and most difficult of all for you, educate yourself in reality.

[Yedtarts]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

Your compatriot, Hellektor, may be foul mouthed, but that's no reason to ignore his book or his arguments. He almost uses his foul mouth in a satirical way. He makes very good points, and I can defend most of his stance very well.

I second that!

[SevSpitak]

Re: And the Fraud Had a Name, Azerbaijan: the Real, the Fake and the Absurd

"They were seized during Kemals' attack on Armenia in 1920". So you are agreeing with me, and recognising that Hellektor's statement (that the border with Nakhchivan resulted from a 1930s land exchange) is wrong?

Hellektor is a loud-mouthed, foul-mouthed racist - the "thesis" of that individual is worth nothing. Nakhchivan exists because by 1920 the overwhelming majority of its population was not Armenian. No fantasy from Hellektor is going to change that hard fact, or the hard fact of the very real existence of the republic of Azerbaijan.

I suggest you read this (don't just look at the map, read the text). If you're going to make such bold Azeri-friendly claims so confidently, I suggest you educate yourself first. The population of Nakhichevan was bout 60-70% Muslim, while the rest was Armenian.

Your compatriot, Hellektor, may be foul mouthed, but that's no reason to ignore his book or his arguments. He almost uses his foul mouth in a satirical way. He makes very good points, and I can defend most of his stance very well.