Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Mukuch]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The Armenian government has clearly revised and at some point rejected the current format of the Madrid principles and now we are leaving clear what our position is and what we are asking for from Azerbaijan, because it's already enough to hear what things they are asking from us. There's always the thing "The Armenian side must make concessions", but what about the Azerbaijani side making concessions?

Guys, let's not take this as we took the Armenian-Turkish protocols when they started, with total hysteria and with heated nerves.

Just look at what Serzh is saying:

“When the people of Nagorno Karabakh gets a real opportunity to implement its right to self-determination and when practical mechanisms of security and development are created, the return of these territories to Azerbaijan may be viewed as a concession from the Armenian side, of course in case the corridor (Lachin) linking Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh is kept”

Now, do you think Azerbaijan is going to agree to that? No! Azerbaijan will never agree to agree to give NK other status than is not that of an autonomous province of Azerbaijan (and I doubt that too), Azerbaijan wants ALL the territory to themselves, and expects us to agree to such nonsense...well Serzh has just proven such thing will never happen, if the Madrid principles proposed that, Mr. Sargsyan has not agreed to it. NK will stay under Armenian and Artsakhi control (+ Lachin corridor). What Serzh is doing is proving to the international media that Armenia is committed and in full accordance with the peace process and its obligations as an involved side.

But of course if we look at it from the opposition's point of view, this is an all times tragedy and a betrayal to national interests, such as the protocols were presented at their time.

That exactly why Karabakh conflict will never be solved diplomaticaly. Well but status qwo works for us.

By the way Levonakans never oposed the protocoles, that was exactly the same thing Levon wanted to do in his time.

[ZORAVAR]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

........
Now, do you think Azerbaijan is going to agree to that? No! Azerbaijan will never agree to agree to give NK other status than is not that of an autonomous province of Azerbaijan (and I doubt that too), Azerbaijan wants ALL the territory to themselves, and expects us to agree to such nonsense...well Serzh has just proven such thing will never happen, if the Madrid principles proposed that, Mr. Sargsyan has not agreed to it. NK will stay under Armenian and Artsakhi control (+ Lachin corridor). What Serzh is doing is proving to the international media that Armenia is committed and in full accordance with the peace process and its obligations as an involved side.

But of course if we look at it from the opposition's point of view, this is an all times tragedy and a betrayal to national interests, such as the protocols were presented at their time.

Agreed.
Serj knows that Azerbaijan will outright reject these preconditions. So, he is showing that the Armenian side are prepared to do concessions for the sake of peace. The Azeri rejection of these Armenian preconditions will make them look like the negative side.
It is just diplomacy. Politicians are politicians.
The ball is in Aliyev's court.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

As i have stated many times before Serj is no davatjan as a matter of fact his political tactics have proved superior to our enemies. Like many here I also used to think that the status quo was in our favor but i am starting to dought this now. The failure of settling the territories we won makes them harder and more expencive to defend both physicaly and politicaly while Armenias isolation is tightining its grip. Armenia needs to get involved in more regional projects perhaps with Iran. I am hopefull of regime change in georgia to a pro russian leadership because this will be a huge benefit to Armenia and allow us to grow much faster. The change in Ukrain was a bloodless political affair but i dont see this being the case in Georgia, i think there is another war brewing-possibly civil war in georgia which may involve Javack. Unlike georgia we have pretty good leaders as far as foreighn policy is conserned (domesticly unfortunately i cannot say the same).

[Mukuch]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Agreed.
Serj knows that Azerbaijan will outright reject these preconditions. So, he is showing that the Armenian side are prepared to do concessions for the sake of peace. The Azeri rejection of these Armenian preconditions will make them look like the negative side.
It is just diplomacy. Politicians are politicians.
The ball is in Aliyev's court.

Passing ball to oponent is not a good move (in football at least) . If you cant score and if you want to win time you kick the ball out of feeld

[ashot24]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenia needs to get involved in more regional projects perhaps with Iran. I am hopefull of regime change in georgia to a pro russian leadership because this will be a huge benefit to Armenia and allow us to grow much faster. The change in Ukrain was a bloodless political affair but i dont see this being the case in Georgia, i think there is another war brewing-possibly civil war in georgia which may involve Javack. Unlike georgia we have pretty good leaders as far as foreighn policy is conserned (domesticly unfortunately i cannot say the same).

No, it's not only the regime which complicates things in Georgia, it's the Georgian people itself, they themselves are indifferent to Armenians in some cases, and in other cases they share the point of view of the Azeries when referring to us, but of course supporting their own ideas. A change of regime in Georgia for a pro-Eastern one will happen only after people opens their eyes, maybe Sakishvili will have to lead Georgia into another war and lose (again) for people to see.

As for our foreign policy, I myself think we are not 100% good, but we are not a 100% bad either maybe a 50/50 stance, but we definitely need some improvements. As for our domestic policy, yes it is very bad and it has always been, but we can't expect nothing else from a country in the conditions Armenia has found herself, instead it is amazing taking into consideration all the cons we have on our side, that we are not in a worse place than we are today...things can only get better, but we need new leaderships, new ideas, new people to lead us to a better future. We also have to wake up.

Changing the subject, I am surprised NKR authorities haven't uttered a word about Sargsyan's statements, has anybody found anything?

[Federate]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Changing the subject, I am surprised NKR authorities haven't uttered a word about Sargsyan's statements, has anybody found anything?

Not exactly NKR but people expressing their opinions that NKR should be the one talking.
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Armen Martirosyan: RA President has no right to speak for NKR
24.03.2010 17:33 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s statement on possible exile of 100 thousand illegal Armenian workers targeted the Turkish population, according Armen Martirosyan, chairman of Heritage opposition party.

“Erdogan wants to preclude victory of nationalists at the next parliamentary elections,” Mr. Martirosyan told reporters on Wednesday.

He also slammed the interview Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan gave to Syrian Al-Watan daily. “The talks on liberated territories should be held by Nagorno Karabakh but not by Armenian President, who has no right to speak for NKR,” he said.

"When the people of Nagorno Karabakh get a real opportunity to exercise their right to self-determination and when working instruments of security and development are created, then Armenia may consider the return of security area regions around NKR as a mutual concession, preserving the corridor linking Armenia to Karabakh,” President Sargsyan told Al-Watan.

http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=44698

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Artsakh ARF – Did President Sargsyan Consult With the People of Karabakh?
[ 2010/03/24 | 16:14 ] Nagorno Karabakh politics
Anahit Danielyan
Reactions to President Sargsyan’s statements in Syria leading to the possibility of territorial concessions in Karabakh have elicited reactions from the NKR as well. In a conversation with Hetq, Davit Ishkhanyan, representative of the ARF’s Artsakh Central Committee, asked if the president had consulted with either the NKR government or people before making such a statement.“Does such a position reflect that of the Karabakh public? It’s no secret that for many years attempts have been made to establish such a position which is presented in the Madrid Principles. Is such a position now being confirmed by the Karabakh society and the government?” asked Mr. Ishkhanyan.

The ARF official answered his own questions with a resounding “No” and stated that it was clear to the people of Karabakh that any return of territories would inevitably lead to the depopulation of Armenians from the region and the loss of Karabakh

He stressed that the Karabakh issue was one that had pan-Armenian significance and that a national approach should be adopted.

Mr. Ishkhanyan raised a number of legal aspects regarding the issue and asked if President Sargsyan’s remarks weren’t in violation of the NKR Constitution or outright interference. He said that on this point the issue of a bilateral written agreement between the RoA and the NKR, bandied about for years, comes into the picture. Such a document would ensure certain guarantees as to the security of the NKR and other matters linked to the settlement process.

Mr. Ishkhanyan also touched on the issue of repopulating the “security corridor” with Armenians and noted that even though Armenia is not conducting such a policy that doesn’t mean that the NKR isn’t doing so.

“If this is the policy of the RoA, then permit me to state that the view of the NKR is different. It’s another matter entirely as to how that policy is being implemented and at what speed,” Mr. Ishkhanyan said.

The ARF official concluded by pointing out that such an approach by the Armenian government could possibly lead to a pan-national outburst similar to what happened during the Turkish-Armenian normalization process.

http://hetq.am/en/politics/nkr-d-ishxanyan/

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

No, it's not only the regime which complicates things in Georgia, it's the Georgian people itself, they themselves are indifferent to Armenians in some cases, and in other cases they share the point of view of the Azeries when referring to us, but of course supporting their own ideas. A change of regime in Georgia for a pro-Eastern one will happen only after people opens their eyes, maybe Sakishvili will have to lead Georgia into another war and lose (again) for people to see.

As for our foreign policy, I myself think we are not 100% good, but we are not a 100% bad either maybe a 50/50 stance, but we definitely need some improvements. As for our domestic policy, yes it is very bad and it has always been, but we can't expect nothing else from a country in the conditions Armenia has found herself, instead it is amazing taking into consideration all the cons we have on our side, that we are not in a worse place than we are today...things can only get better, but we need new leaderships, new ideas, new people to lead us to a better future. We also have to wake up.

Changing the subject, I am surprised NKR authorities haven't uttered a word about Sargsyan's statements, has anybody found anything?

The foreighn policy side has been steller! Way better then 50/50. On the domestic policies the government has way more power then in foreighn policy thus it can and should be expected to do more. Things like the cops stoping you for no reason to collect a few drams, supper high import duties on pretty much everything, destruction of forests...these are very much under the control of the government and there has been no imrovments. I do not think that things are somehow destines to only get better but the government can and should be doing way more to that end.

[ashot24]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Not exactly NKR but people expressing their opinions that NKR should be the one talking.

They are right about that, NKR people and government should be the ones deciding (and I know the people disagree), however I don't think Sargsyan would just talk and talk what he wants without (note I don't say consulting) previously informing other officials (i.e. Bako Sahakyan) about what's going on or what's he's going to say. Don't you think so?

The foreighn policy side has been steller! Way better then 50/50. On the domestic policies the government has way more power then in foreighn policy thus it can and should be expected to do more. Things like the cops stoping you for no reason to collect a few drams, supper high import duties on pretty much everything, destruction of forests...these are very much under the control of the government and there has been no imrovments. I do not think that things are somehow destines to only get better but the government can and should be doing way more to that end.

I know we are better than 50/50, way better, but I just don't want to go and make conclusions too soon, we can only tell for sure if our foreign policy was successful when time has passed and the outcomes of it are presented.

The government can make a lot, however from my experience (since I live in a country with pretty much the same issues), is not they can't make things different, it's just don't want to. Why? I don't know...there must be some kind of huge benefit (monetary, etc.) from people keeping poor and the country keeping in a bad state, that makes much more affordable to do nothing than to do something, or maybe they're just lazy. These things are the "must-have"'s of third world countries

[Armanen]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Ecuador has oil, open borders, and is not in a state of war. Comparing Armenia and Ecuador, there is no reason Ecuador shouldn't be a much richer country, but because of various issues, Ecuador is worse at some things than Armenia, and I would say is not any richer.

[ashot24]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Ecuador has oil, open borders, and is not in a state of war. Comparing Armenia and Ecuador, there is no reason Ecuador shouldn't be a much richer country, but because of various issues, Ecuador is worse at some things than Armenia, and I would say is not any richer.

Ecuador has oil, yet we have to give it to others to produce all the goods from it, and then they sell it back at much higher prices so it's like not having it, we still have to buy our own oil. As for the other issues, haha put it like this Armanen jan: Ecuador is Armenia, Peru and Colombia switch places as Azerbaijan and Turkey, and Venezuela is our Russia (we don't have a Georgia luckily, and sadly we don't have an Iran) and our NKR is the Galapagos Islands.