What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

[jgk3]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

Here are some maps:

We're not living in 55BC here. Part of the reason why Europe didn't take our propsed mandate seriously after the genocide was because we'd draw maps like this.

[Catharsis]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

We're not living in 55BC here. Part of the reason why Europe didn't take our propsed mandate seriously after the genocide was because we'd draw maps like this.

To be honest I don't think that was the reason. I think, most colonially-minded European powers were looking to take over gas/oil reach Arab countries (and they did), while Armenia had neither of those (although it is rich in other natural resources, but not as much relating to energy). This map is not that incorrect since it includes the so-called "6 Armenian villayets" or if you will Western Armenia (with Cilician Armenia and Armenia Minor). Caucasian Albania was for most part never part of Greater Armenia, although it was a dependency for sometime, so anything beyond Kur river is not ours, besides there are plenty of Caucasian peoples (Lezgins, Avars, Tats etc. Talysh inhabit parts of historic Armenian province of Paytakaran but they are also indigenous there) there who are related to the Caucasian Albanians. That is their land historically. Similarly, anything beyond Javakhk is also not Armenian, but belongs to Laz (who are in very good terms with Hamshen Armenians of Black Sea coast), Ajarans, Abkhaz and Georgians.

[jgk3]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

To be honest I don't think that was the reason. I think, most colonially-minded European powers were looking to take over gas/oil reach Arab countries (and they did), while Armenia had neither of those (although it is rich in other natural resources, but not as much relating to energy). This map is not that incorrect since it includes the so-called "6 Armenian villayets" or if you will Western Armenia (with Cilician Armenia and Armenia Minor). Caucasian Albania was for most part never part of Greater Armenia, although it was a dependency for sometime, so anything beyond Kur river is not ours, besides there are plenty of Caucasian peoples (Lezgins, Avars, Tats etc. Talysh inhabit parts of historic Armenian province of Paytakaran but they are also indigenous there) there who are related to the Caucasian Albanians. That is their land historically. Similarly, anything beyond Javakhk is also not Armenian, but belongs to Laz (who are in very good terms with Hamshen Armenians of Black Sea coast), Ajarans, Abkhaz and Georgians.

Well, the most obnoxious aspect of the map was how far north it claims in Georgia (beyond Javakh), how it claims ALL of Azerbaijan, and how it outright claims a very long eastern strip of the Black Sea coastline, as though it was outright Armenian (though we'd have significant minorities there, remember, much of that area was multi-ethnic, and it was not often under Armenian hegemony throughout our history).

[hipeter924]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

In Robert Fisk's book "The War for Civilization" he puts it at the attempts of the European powers (French and British Empire's) at the time to '"get Turkey on their side" for WW2 and gave away the Armenian territories as presents in hope that Turkey would join their side. This failed as Turkey only entered the war "a few days before Hitler committed suicide in his bunker".

[Catharsis]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

Well, the most obnoxious aspect of the map was how far north it claims in Georgia (beyond Javakh), how it claims ALL of Azerbaijan, and how it outright claims a very long eastern strip of the Black Sea coastline, as though it was outright Armenian (though we'd have significant minorities there, remember, much of that area was multi-ethnic, and it was not often under Armenian hegemony throughout our history).

Yes JGK3 I agree about Georgian territories and those of east of Kur river. They are not traditionally Armenian and have their own indigenous peoples there, although there has been a very strong Armenian presence in these territories from the antiquity with a significant input into both Caucasian Albania and Iberia. Black Sea coastline was part of Armenia Minor and Pontic Kingdom interchangeably, today it is predominantly populated by Hamshen Armenians (some more true to their Armenian roots than others), Laz and remnants of Pontic Greeks who were genocided along with Armenians between 1915-1923. Therefore arguably the coastline today is where you will find most of the remnants of Armenians who once thrived in all of the Armenian provinces of the Ottoman Empire. I believe, it was also taken into account as the Arbitrary Award of President Woodrow Wilson included a good deal of the Black Sea into the borders of Wilsonian Armenia.

[Federate]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

Here's another nice map of Artsakh that we could all use, spread it around everyone!

[Catharsis]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

Very good map Federate, thank you.

[Armanen]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

Great map, thank you!

[Federate]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

No problem guys! I am glad you are interested. This should have never been an issue or should have been dealt with 20 years ago. Here's another one in Armenian.
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[Catharsis]

Re: What are the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh?

No problem guys! I am glad you are interested. This should have never been an issue or should have been dealt with 20 years ago. Here's another one in Armenian.
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Thanks Federate. Constitution of the Artsakh Republic (AR) is clear about the state borders and Artsakh Armenians are correct to point out the violation of this very constitution through maps that do not reflect all of the provinces (Shahumyan, Berdzor, Hadrut etc.) of AR and instead give the 'NKAO' borders that have been modified several times (for example the so-called "Lachin corridor" was only artificially made in 1950s as more and more "NKAO" territory was chewed up) throughout the 20th century through serious of transfers from the "NKAO" to Azerbaijan.

1925 map of 'NKAO' still showing the direct connection with Armenia. The dotted red lines indicate Armenian territory of Karvachar and other parts of Berdzor that were already in 1923 handed over to "Azerbaijan" that were still marked as "Karabakh" - including to the north of NKAO - on Soviet maps (but outside of the administrative "Autonomous Province of Mountainous Karabakh").