Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

We all want the best for Armenia but we must also think rationally. I personally don’t see anything good from this so called roadmap deal. I know secrecy is important in these on going talks but given how much advantage Turkey has and listening to their leaders hard-line comments (Gul, Erdogan, Babacan) one can only see that this will not end well for Armenia.

Look, Turkey is not going to budge on AG recognition and will not abandon its Azeri cousins. Russians are working hard to bring Azerbaijan into there sphere of influence. The Nabucco gas pipeline has already been approved by all countries and very soon gas from Central Asia will be pumped underneath the Caspian Sea to EU with Armenia getting a big fat ZERO in the deal. What are these benefits from border opening that we are talking about?

Well one thing is for sure, the traffic will increase and it will be one way flow of goods to Armenia. How is it that we expect Armenia with a GDP of 18 Billion to compete with Turkey’s 800Billion? This is a joke. Eventually, Armenia will not only become part of the Turkish domestic market, but it will be dependent upon Turkey for much of its manufactured goods. There will be a rise in unemployment and a decrease in productivity since Turkey has the advantage of being able to expand its productivity and attract a labor force. There is also the possibility that Armenian entrepreneurs will find the grass greener on the other side. There are few goods or commodities produced in Armenia that are not produced in greater quantities in Turkey, which limits any significant flow of traffic from Armenia to Turkey. Is this what Yerevan believes will be a benefit derived from normalization? Within a relatively short time, the Armenian dram would most likely lose its value and get replaced by the Turkish lira. Think about it, any progress in Armenia’s economic development will be hampered by Turkey’s economic domination.

Even though Armenia will maintain its independence, the Armenian foreign policies will be influenced by Ankara in the international community (President of Armenia will become like a Mayor). As a precondition, Armenia is being asked to sacrifice the independence of its brothers and sisters in Artsakh. If they agree………..the 7,000 azatamartiks are no less martyrs than the 1,500,000 innocent Armenian men, women, and children who were slaughtered during the genocide carried out by the Ottomans and Ataturk. Can there be any justification for Yerevan for selling out Karabakh? Look how far in 15 years the Karabakhtsis have come against all odds (nobody thought this in their wildest dreams) running a model democracy compared to the autocratic Government of Azeris. In 1923 Armenians had no say when their lands were just given away like candy, to allow this to happen again will be unimaginable to me. To allow all of this to happen, Armenia will be no better than as it was a Soviet Socialist Republic of Armenia.

Nobody cares, look at USA. They support Turkey and pushing for its entrance into the EU for its advantage. They want Turkey to have a role in solving the Karabakh conflict. It supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. And just recently, aid to Armenia in the budget year for 2010 was reduced while aid to Azerbaijan was increased. As it is said, when you know that the cards are stacked against you, only the fool continues to play.

Normalization is the end of Hai Tahd and it is the end for the justice that generations of Armenians have worked to achieve. Do you think anybody in the world would support our claims against Turkey after this freaking Normalization? Hell no.
Yerevan must become an effective machine that will increase economic and military advantages to Armenia and Artsakh. Nothing gets other peoples attention better than money and weapons.

I agree with most you have written, but there a few points I want to make. Right now nobody cares about us, really nobody does. No nation would weep if all of our people were killed, who helped us after 1915? Who helped the starving Armenia? No one, so not much will change if the borders are opened and believe me there will never be a normal relation between us and the Turks there are 1.5 million dead Armenians that never will be forgotten.

There are Turkish goods now in Armenia that are coming through Georgia so not that much will change but the thing that will change is that we can export stuff to Europe much cheaper. There are a lot of positive aspects when the border is opened but there are many negative aspects too. Like the preconditions the Turks are still trying to get inside the deal, I don't think that will work very well. Our leaders aren't very stupid they will not sign anything that stupid.

What we now must do is find a way to open the borders but put a limitation on what can pass through the border and how much. Like it is in when entering the EU. The border opening will not happen soon it will take a lot of time. Who knows what will happen till than. Maybe the second phase of the Artsakh war will start and the Turks will forget that they ever had tried to open the border.

[Haykakan]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

I really don't think the concerns eddo talks about are all that valid.No one is giving up kharabagh and we have managed to stickaround all this time as armenians so the border opening won't change that either.I don't know how many of you have been to armenia but the one thing you will definetly notice there is that it is already full of turckish goods.The opening of borders will give us a dependable link to europe(especially dependable if turckey joins eu) and the influx of turckish goods is not going to make a big difference since armenia is already flooded with such goods.The only valid point is that other countries will think its all ok now and ignore the genocide issue but then again what are they doing about it now? and do you really think they will ever do anything about it if we keep the borders closed?I am a bit older then most of you here and i have been watching every april 24 how we pour money into the pockets of american polititians who happily say a few words,take the money and and we get what for it?NOTHING!!!!!!!!! I say save your money and spend it on going to armenia and spend it all there instead, you will be doing a lot more good that way.Every time i think about how much effort and money the armenian community has poured down the drain to these polititians it pisses me off, i mean we cant even get them to say the xxxxin G word, not only that, after record amounts of political contributions and capitol spent by us, armenia gets its millenium fund cut off while azeris have a increase.Mind you that the millanium fund is setup to enourage and reward democratic reform and the azeris now have a autocracy in place while we have a slightly flawed democrasy.I mean really whose fooling who?Save your money and go to our homeland, you wont regret it.I know that eddo and most people here have their hearts in the right place but the key is to use your resources in a way that best benefit the cause you are fighting for and that cause should be to have a prosperous and vibrant homeland for our people, one that we ourselves will want to go live in.Thousends of years of keeping our identity is not threatened by the turckish border being opened, it can actually help us instead.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

Good post, some valid concerns that we must find answers to.

I agree, my point of view is aligned EXACTLY with Eddo211's post.

[Gavur]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

We all want the best for Armenia but we must also think rationally. I personally don’t see anything good from this so called roadmap deal. I know secrecy is important in these on going talks but given how much advantage Turkey has and listening to their leaders hard-line comments (Gul, Erdogan, Babacan) one can only see that this will not end well for Armenia.

Look, Turkey is not going to budge on AG recognition and will not abandon its Azeri cousins. Russians are working hard to bring Azerbaijan into there sphere of influence. The Nabucco gas pipeline has already been approved by all countries and very soon gas from Central Asia will be pumped underneath the Caspian Sea to EU with Armenia getting a big fat ZERO in the deal. What are these benefits from border opening that we are talking about?

Well one thing is for sure, the traffic will increase and it will be one way flow of goods to Armenia. How is it that we expect Armenia with a GDP of 18 Billion to compete with Turkey’s 800Billion? This is a joke. Eventually, Armenia will not only become part of the Turkish domestic market, but it will be dependent upon Turkey for much of its manufactured goods. There will be a rise in unemployment and a decrease in productivity since Turkey has the advantage of being able to expand its productivity and attract a labor force. There is also the possibility that Armenian entrepreneurs will find the grass greener on the other side. There are few goods or commodities produced in Armenia that are not produced in greater quantities in Turkey, which limits any significant flow of traffic from Armenia to Turkey. Is this what Yerevan believes will be a benefit derived from normalization? Within a relatively short time, the Armenian dram would most likely lose its value and get replaced by the Turkish lira. Think about it, any progress in Armenia’s economic development will be hampered by Turkey’s economic domination.

Even though Armenia will maintain its independence, the Armenian foreign policies will be influenced by Ankara in the international community (President of Armenia will become like a Mayor). As a precondition, Armenia is being asked to sacrifice the independence of its brothers and sisters in Artsakh. If they agree………..the 7,000 azatamartiks are no less martyrs than the 1,500,000 innocent Armenian men, women, and children who were slaughtered during the genocide carried out by the Ottomans and Ataturk. Can there be any justification for Yerevan for selling out Karabakh? Look how far in 15 years the Karabakhtsis have come against all odds (nobody thought this in their wildest dreams) running a model democracy compared to the autocratic Government of Azeris. In 1923 Armenians had no say when their lands were just given away like candy, to allow this to happen again will be unimaginable to me. To allow all of this to happen, Armenia will be no better than as it was a Soviet Socialist Republic of Armenia.

Nobody cares, look at USA. They support Turkey and pushing for its entrance into the EU for its advantage. They want Turkey to have a role in solving the Karabakh conflict. It supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. And just recently, aid to Armenia in the budget year for 2010 was reduced while aid to Azerbaijan was increased. As it is said, when you know that the cards are stacked against you, only the fool continues to play.

Normalization is the end of Hai Tahd and it is the end for the justice that generations of Armenians have worked to achieve. Do you think anybody in the world would support our claims against Turkey after this freaking Normalization? Hell no.
Yerevan must become an effective machine that will increase economic and military advantages to Armenia and Artsakh. Nothing gets other peoples attention better than money and weapons.

Good post, some valid concerns that we must find answers to.

[Haykakan]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

We will not give up anything, the moment they give up an inch of land they'll try to take more and more till they have it all. Serj is also from Artsakh and he will not give up any of the lands freed in the war. That's way our enemies don't like him because he doesn't want to talk giving up any land.

Try telling that to mukush and friends.There is no way he will give up anything unless we get something of fair value in return.You can hate the government for this or that but you gotta realize that this government was formed because they overthrough LTP when he wanted to give up and it managed to do well enoughf to win a war against horrid odds.It is also under this government that we have seen armenia grow economicly and in most other ways.You gotta call it like it is, sure it has done plenty of bad things but what government hasn't, at the same time it has achieved more then most other governments.Eddo the whole purpose of opening the turckish border is exssess to europe and its markets, the turckish market is of smaller significance.We as a people have managed to keep our identity for thousends of years against much worst odds so i think we can handle a open border without becoming turcks.Negotiations are a good thing (better then war anyways) so let them talk and who knows maybe something good will come of it.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

According to Mukuch Serj holds the deeds to kharabagh and wants to sell it for some turckish bread and butter.Serj cannot give away kharabagh anymore then he can give away michigan to the azeris.We will definetly have to give up some of the surrounding regions if we are to secure peace deal but the only way to lose kharabagh is by losing a war.Azeris do not care about it as much as we do, and it is way harder to take land then to defend it. Azeris would be risking way too much if they attack and are deafeated so i really dought there is going to be another war.We need to develope armenia anf kharabagh and this should be our number 1 priority, it is more important today then anything else for armenians who care about anything armenian.

We will not give up anything, the moment they give up an inch of land they'll try to take more and more till they have it all. Serj is also from Artsakh and he will not give up any of the lands freed in the war. That's way our enemies don't like him because he doesn't want to talk giving up any land.

[Eddo211]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

We all want the best for Armenia but we must also think rationally. I personally don’t see anything good from this so called roadmap deal. I know secrecy is important in these on going talks but given how much advantage Turkey has and listening to their leaders hard-line comments (Gul, Erdogan, Babacan) one can only see that this will not end well for Armenia.

Look, Turkey is not going to budge on AG recognition and will not abandon its Azeri cousins. Russians are working hard to bring Azerbaijan into there sphere of influence. The Nabucco gas pipeline has already been approved by all countries and very soon gas from Central Asia will be pumped underneath the Caspian Sea to EU with Armenia getting a big fat ZERO in the deal. What are these benefits from border opening that we are talking about?

Well one thing is for sure, the traffic will increase and it will be one way flow of goods to Armenia. How is it that we expect Armenia with a GDP of 18 Billion to compete with Turkey’s 800Billion? This is a joke. Eventually, Armenia will not only become part of the Turkish domestic market, but it will be dependent upon Turkey for much of its manufactured goods. There will be a rise in unemployment and a decrease in productivity since Turkey has the advantage of being able to expand its productivity and attract a labor force. There is also the possibility that Armenian entrepreneurs will find the grass greener on the other side. There are few goods or commodities produced in Armenia that are not produced in greater quantities in Turkey, which limits any significant flow of traffic from Armenia to Turkey. Is this what Yerevan believes will be a benefit derived from normalization? Within a relatively short time, the Armenian dram would most likely lose its value and get replaced by the Turkish lira. Think about it, any progress in Armenia’s economic development will be hampered by Turkey’s economic domination.

Even though Armenia will maintain its independence, the Armenian foreign policies will be influenced by Ankara in the international community (President of Armenia will become like a Mayor). As a precondition, Armenia is being asked to sacrifice the independence of its brothers and sisters in Artsakh. If they agree………..the 7,000 azatamartiks are no less martyrs than the 1,500,000 innocent Armenian men, women, and children who were slaughtered during the genocide carried out by the Ottomans and Ataturk. Can there be any justification for Yerevan for selling out Karabakh? Look how far in 15 years the Karabakhtsis have come against all odds (nobody thought this in their wildest dreams) running a model democracy compared to the autocratic Government of Azeris. In 1923 Armenians had no say when their lands were just given away like candy, to allow this to happen again will be unimaginable to me. To allow all of this to happen, Armenia will be no better than as it was a Soviet Socialist Republic of Armenia.

Nobody cares, look at USA. They support Turkey and pushing for its entrance into the EU for its advantage. They want Turkey to have a role in solving the Karabakh conflict. It supports the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. And just recently, aid to Armenia in the budget year for 2010 was reduced while aid to Azerbaijan was increased. As it is said, when you know that the cards are stacked against you, only the fool continues to play.

Normalization is the end of Hai Tahd and it is the end for the justice that generations of Armenians have worked to achieve. Do you think anybody in the world would support our claims against Turkey after this freaking Normalization? Hell no.
Yerevan must become an effective machine that will increase economic and military advantages to Armenia and Artsakh. Nothing gets other peoples attention better than money and weapons.

[Haykakan]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

Mukuch stop with the stupid talks the last part I mean about selling land. Look at the words coming out of the Azeris and you'll see that they are hating Serjik. They want us to be more ready to make peace with them.
And the border issue has changed very much right now, the only ones saying there are progresses are people far away from the discussion table. If you look to what has happened the last month and the words coming out of Ankara and Yerevan you would see the border will not open for a very long time.

I got a question to every one what would happen if Serge decided to give Artsakh to Azeris. How would he do that he's not the president of Artsakh and the soldiers there have sworn an oath to protect the borders and are serving under the Artsakh flag not Armenian flag.

According to Mukuch Serj holds the deeds to kharabagh and wants to sell it for some turckish bread and butter.Serj cannot give away kharabagh anymore then he can give away michigan to the azeris.We will definetly have to give up some of the surrounding regions if we are to secure peace deal but the only way to lose kharabagh is by losing a war.Azeris do not care about it as much as we do, and it is way harder to take land then to defend it. Azeris would be risking way too much if they attack and are deafeated so i really dought there is going to be another war.We need to develope armenia anf kharabagh and this should be our number 1 priority, it is more important today then anything else for armenians who care about anything armenian.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

You have no xxxxen idea what you are talking about and with who. Where have you been from 91 to 94 ? In Russia? You are still there. And Yes my daughter was born under candle light in Yerevan when I was not there, I was 400 km to east. It was in 1993. My father had to bring diesel fuel to run the generator in the hospital so my wife would give parts not under candle light...but was late. Yes I wasn’t there. Where I was there I didn’t see you. OK? Now piss off. End of conversation. And don’t come to me with that bullxxxx again... As I say it is question of priorities and values. For you it is peas of bread with cheap Turkish butter for your kids, my values are different….
Now you can chill out and wait untill your governmant sells Karabakh and than what is resting of Armenia....

Mukuch stop with the stupid talks the last part I mean about selling land. Look at the words coming out of the Azeris and you'll see that they are hating Serjik. They want us to be more ready to make peace with them.
And the border issue has changed very much right now, the only ones saying there are progresses are people far away from the discussion table. If you look to what has happened the last month and the words coming out of Ankara and Yerevan you would see the border will not open for a very long time.

I got a question to every one what would happen if Serge decided to give Artsakh to Azeris. How would he do that he's not the president of Artsakh and the soldiers there have sworn an oath to protect the borders and are serving under the Artsakh flag not Armenian flag.

[Haykakan]

Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

It doesnt really matter who you are, and i know full well what i am talking about. You cannot respond to the factual statements i made so you want to end dialogue "OK? Now piss off. End of conversation. And don’t come to me with that bullxxxx again". This just means you have no argument. Then you bring in insults which seem to be the hakmark of your responces "For you it is peas of bread with cheap Turkish butter for your kids, my values are different….
Now you can chill out and wait untill your governmant sells Karabakh and than what is resting of Armenia" as if i had something to do with the government in power there and you don't, as if your priorities and values are somehow better then mine.I suspect your just another flagwaving idiot like much of post911 america and for your information if you dont have bread and butter you will die and you and your values wont matter.The way you and many others talk its as if we have a huge and powerfull army that can kick turckeys ass and this government chooses to get rich instead of getting whats rightfully ours, well i think once you wakeup and see that your toughf words have no such army to back them up you will stay in whatever country you are in whiule your people in armenia feel the brunt of the consequences of such stupid retoric. If you have nothing to back up your big words then shut up or talk about something you do know about.Btw i was there in 93 and i know exactly what it was like and i dont want it to happen again!